WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Incongruouse comment in Curling's letter f 7th April
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyToday at 3:23 am by Frank Allewell

» Samuel Renton Gardner, 17th Lancers
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyYesterday at 6:05 am by rai

» Robert Chaloner Critchley Long
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyYesterday at 4:40 am by rai

» John Cannell
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyYesterday at 3:57 am by rai

» Captain Watson served with the King's Dragoon Guards
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyYesterday at 3:16 am by rai

» L Company 24th
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 7:45 pm by Eddie

» Captain of Hussars
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 2:37 pm by Eddie

» David Souter Robertson attached 2/21st
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 2:06 pm by Eddie

» Private McNally's Letter
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 10:35 am by rai

» Ferreira's Horse
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 9:38 am by Eddie

» W J Bourne
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 9:29 am by Eddie

» George Middleton
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 8:46 am by rai

» A Jungle Expedition in Prayagraj, India
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 6:06 am by rai

» Old Historian2
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyFri Dec 02, 2022 2:30 am by Eddie

» RORKE'S DRIFT HERO
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 11:58 pm by Eddie

»  Corporal E. THOMAS 793 2-24th Foot
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 6:53 pm by harry67

» Forces War Records
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 11:19 am by harry67

» Private 1698 James Bain 91st Regiment
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 9:08 am by gardner1879

» James Hudson.
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 6:27 am by rai

» Mr. John Hinshaw
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 5:18 pm by Kenny

» Charles Frederick Murray MacGregor
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 4:09 pm by Eddie

» Symonds Jermyn d'Arcy Travers
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 11:28 am by rai

» Francis S Alcock
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 10:48 am by rai

» Captain Carlos A. Rivers - HMS Shah?
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 8:59 am by rai

» Lieutenant-Colonel McWatters
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 3:10 am by Eddie

» Colonel J. F. Caldwell
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyTue Nov 29, 2022 11:28 am by rai

» Major T de la Haye Brotherton. Royal Engineers
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyMon Nov 28, 2022 9:55 pm by Isandula

» Drummer 1899 Albert Thomas Glover 99th Regiment
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyMon Nov 28, 2022 6:06 pm by Albert Glover

» Capts. Dymes and Smythe, 1/1 NNC
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyMon Nov 28, 2022 3:42 pm by Julian Whybra

» number of rounds
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyMon Nov 28, 2022 1:03 pm by free1954

» Did Chelmsford just misinterpret the Reconnaissance information that he had?
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySun Nov 27, 2022 8:13 pm by Tig Van Milcroft

» Recovered weapons from Gingindhlovu and Kambula
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySat Nov 26, 2022 12:55 pm by ADMIN

» Ian Knight. November 2022: AZW Battlefield Sites Report
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySat Nov 26, 2022 12:50 pm by ADMIN

» Company Sergeant Major F. W. Peake, Royal Engineers
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySat Nov 26, 2022 6:25 am by rai

» "Ex-Sergeant Major Craven" - a Curio.
Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySat Nov 26, 2022 5:54 am by rai

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Zulu War Chants (Film Zulu)
Top posters
90th
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
littlehand
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
ADMIN
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
1879graves
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
rusteze
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
John Young
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
gardner1879
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Eddie
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
rai
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
harry67
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
Kenny
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
John Young
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
Bill8183
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
Tig Van Milcroft
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
gardner1879
Horace Smith-Dorrien Bar_leftHorace Smith-Dorrien BarHorace Smith-Dorrien Bar_right 
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Adding to the Library
Durnford was he capable.5
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
Roll anstey james Russell smith henry Police harford Franklin 2022 Prince martini payne Natal 24th horse spalding Durnford Woolfryes Mounted Jones brown john Isandlwana George drift
 

 Horace Smith-Dorrien

Go down 
+7
tasker224
amberwitch
littlehand
90th
ciroferrara
1879graves
Frank Allewell
11 posters
AuthorMessage
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8376
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyTue Mar 01, 2011 8:18 am

Smith Dorriens life history really puts a few issues of iSandlwana into perspective. He was a brave man, he didnt run away from a fight. And yet he left iSandlwana? Loocking at the time frame he wasnt the last to leave the battle and yet he felt that he could do no more. Modern historians debunk the old theories that the fighting was over very quickly, the various stands tend to prove their point. So from his position, at the wagon park, its elevated so he would have had a good view over all of the battlefield, he comments on the companies retreating as far as the neck and forming a line with fixed bayonets. He also mentions most of the wagons being driven away from the waggon park?
He says he fled when the companies were over run with the backs to the rocks. Some thing strange with his recolections of events, We know that Ansteys fighting retreat was effectivly the last resistance, the sequence of events would then put SD either leaving while Anstey was retreating over the neck or before, in which case the fighting was at its height?
When he did eventually get onto the trail he was passed by both Coghill and Mellvil, Coghill first then Mellvill later. As Coghill was the first to report that Pullein was dead, would that mean that SD left while he was still alive?
Hardly likely given the mans character.

How much therefore are the memories tainted by conversations with other suvivors, either on the trail, Helpmekaar, or later in the war.

A further conundrum to ponder.

Regards
Back to top Go down
1879graves

1879graves


Posts : 3317
Join date : 2009-03-03
Location : Devon

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySun Apr 03, 2011 3:22 pm

Hi All

How true this is, I have no idea scratch

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
http://zuluwar1879.tribalpages.com
ciroferrara

ciroferrara


Posts : 277
Join date : 2010-10-07
Age : 31
Location : exeter

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySun Apr 03, 2011 8:04 pm

the man who rode away with smith-dorriens horse i beleive was lieutenant Hamer
Back to top Go down
1879graves

1879graves


Posts : 3317
Join date : 2009-03-03
Location : Devon

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySun Apr 03, 2011 8:18 pm

Hi ciroferrara

Now that is very interesting because I am unable to find a Lieutenant Hamer listed scratch

Back to top Go down
http://zuluwar1879.tribalpages.com
90th

90th


Posts : 10621
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Horace Smith - Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySun Apr 03, 2011 9:06 pm

Hi All.
There was a Jas , Nathaniel Hamer an acting control officer attached to the Army Commissariat and Transport Department .
I think This will be the '' Hamer '' Ciroferrara is referring to .
cheers 90th. Idea
Back to top Go down
1879graves

1879graves


Posts : 3317
Join date : 2009-03-03
Location : Devon

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySun Apr 03, 2011 9:10 pm

Hi 90th

I have the following listed:

Acting Commissary Officer J.H. Hamer, Commissariat and Transport Department

and

Conductor James Nathaniel Hamer, Locally Recruited Transport Department

No Lieutenant scratch
Back to top Go down
http://zuluwar1879.tribalpages.com
ciroferrara

ciroferrara


Posts : 277
Join date : 2010-10-07
Age : 31
Location : exeter

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySun Apr 03, 2011 10:58 pm

sorry my mistake it was in fact James Hamer a who was attached to durnfords command (not a lieutenant)
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7077
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 54
Location : Down South.

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyMon Apr 04, 2011 3:59 pm

Quote:
SD's own account, written shortly after the battle, doesn't mention Hamer by name.



Extract from "Memories of Forty-Eight Years Service"

"With help of my revolver and a wild jump down the rocks I found myself in the Buffalo River, which was in flood and eighty yards broad. I was carried away, but luckily got hold of the tail of a loose horse, which towed me across to the other bank, but I was too exhausted to stick to him. Up this bank were swarming friendly natives, but I only saw one European, a Colonial and Acting Commissariat Officer named Hamer, lying there unable to move. I managed to catch a loose horse, and put him on it, and he escaped. The Zulus were pouring in a very heavy fire from the opposite bank and dropped several friendly natives as we climbed to the top. No sooner had I achieved this than I saw that a lot of Zulus had crossed higher up and were running to cut me off. This drove me off to my left, but twenty of them still pursued for about three miles, and I managed to keep them off with my revolver."


Back to top Go down
ciroferrara

ciroferrara


Posts : 277
Join date : 2010-10-07
Age : 31
Location : exeter

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyMon Apr 04, 2011 5:23 pm

my extract is according to Ian Knights Zulu Rising
Back to top Go down
amberwitch




Posts : 16
Join date : 2010-04-18

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyMon Apr 04, 2011 5:49 pm

Hamer doesn't mention SD in his own account of the battle, though according to SD's biographer, he was active in trying to get SD's bravery acknowledged

For two separate acts on the 22nd January he was recommended for the Victoria Cross but he did not receive it as the proper channels of communication were not employed. Mr Hamer, the civilian commissary whose life he had saved, wrote copious letters to the Horse Guards and to Horace’s family but to no avail. When this became apparent Hamer did his best to obtain for him the Royal Humane Society’s medal but was told that it was too late. Many years later Horace wrote that he thought the decision was the right one.The Man who Disobeyed: Sir Horace-Smith Dorrien and his enemies. (p17)
By A. J. Smithers
Leo Cooper. London
1970
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224


Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 55
Location : North London

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyMon Apr 04, 2011 6:21 pm

"Hamer doesn't mention SD in his own account of the battle, though according to SD's biographer, he was active in trying to get SD's bravery acknowledged"

Amberwitch, if you had stolen another soldier's horse and bolted, leaving that man for dead, would you mention him in your account of the battle?

Perhaps explains Hamer's campaigning in trying to get SD's bravery ackowledged - GUILT.


On the subject of SD's "bravery" and in fear of reopening the thread started by Dave on Wed 17th Feb - Coghill and Melville Issue, none of those who fled the battle on horseback leaving their comrades on foot to fight til the end should have been honoured in any way - they were saving their own hides.
I am not saying they were wrong to flee and I am ashamed to admit that perhaps, under the same circumstances, I would have done the same thing; although I never abondoned my comrades, I hasten to add in over 22 years' service and I have been in a few tight spots. But one thing I am sure of, SD, Coghill, Melville - none of them deserved to be HONOURED for running from the battle, no matter what the excuse.
Back to top Go down
amberwitch




Posts : 16
Join date : 2010-04-18

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyMon Apr 04, 2011 6:40 pm

Amberwitch, if you had stolen another soldier's horse and bolted, leaving that man for dead, would you mention him in your account of the battle?

Does SD mention stealing? Hamer was a younger man than SD, quite exhausted and wet through at the time.
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224


Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 55
Location : North London

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyMon Apr 04, 2011 7:56 pm

From SD's own, "Memories of Forty Eight Years Service" from a letter to his father:

"I was the only white man to be seen until I came to one who had been kicked by his horse and could not remount. I put him on his horse and lent him my knife. He said he would catch me a horse. Directly he was up, he went clean away."

Later SD identified that man who broke his promise as James Hamer. Not surprisingly, Hamer does not mention this incident in his own account of his escape.


Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224


Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 55
Location : North London

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyMon Apr 04, 2011 7:58 pm

Also, enlarge and read 1879Graves' second image in the second post on this thread.
Back to top Go down
1879graves

1879graves


Posts : 3317
Join date : 2009-03-03
Location : Devon

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyMon Apr 04, 2011 9:01 pm

Hi All

After ciroferrara said it was Hamer, this got me thinking, so I checked the medal roll and my database.
On checking I came up with two Hamer's:-
Acting Commissary Officer J.H. Hamer, Commissariat and Transport Department and
Conductor James Nathaniel Hamer, Locally Recruited Transport Department

Acting Commissary Officer J.H. Hamer come from D.R. Forsyth Medal Roll
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

And I also have James Nathaniel Hamer in my database. My question then was, were they the same person or different individuals?

Now on checking the original roll, see below, you can see how the mistake has happened by D.R. Forsyth.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

So they are the same individual
Back to top Go down
http://zuluwar1879.tribalpages.com
littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7077
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 54
Location : Down South.

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyThu Aug 04, 2011 10:40 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
1879graves

1879graves


Posts : 3317
Join date : 2009-03-03
Location : Devon

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySat Aug 06, 2011 8:28 am

Hi All

This is the colour version from 'The World' circa 1912. (John Young Collection)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
http://zuluwar1879.tribalpages.com
Mr Greaves

Mr Greaves


Posts : 747
Join date : 2009-10-18

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySun Aug 07, 2011 12:19 pm

Why doe's it have SPY written on it ?
Back to top Go down
kwajimu1879

kwajimu1879


Posts : 420
Join date : 2011-05-14

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySun Aug 07, 2011 12:46 pm

'Spy' was the pseudonym of Sir Leslie Matthew Ward (21st November 1851 to 15th May 1922) an artist who worked for 'Vanity Fair' & 'The World'.

kwaJimu1879
Back to top Go down
John

John


Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 60
Location : UK

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyWed Mar 21, 2012 2:41 pm

SMITH0DORRIEN'S SPRINT FOR LIFE.
Star , Issue 6819, 12 June 1900, Page 2
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Also posted by Springbok.

This wasn't how he told it in " MEMORIES OF FORTY-EIGHT YEARS SERVICE"
Back to top Go down
Mr Greaves

Mr Greaves


Posts : 747
Join date : 2009-10-18

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySat Mar 12, 2016 11:08 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


We see a parade and a large crowd of people at a ceremony to unveil a Great War memorial in the town of Alfreton in Derbyshire. The ceremony is performed by General Sir Horace Smith-Dorrien.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10621
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Horace Smith - Dorrien    Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySun Mar 13, 2016 5:20 am

Good get Mr G , pity it didn't show more of Horace .
90th Salute
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 2635
Join date : 2021-01-04

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Smith Dorrien "The Scarlet Runner"   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptySun Sep 25, 2022 12:23 pm

Might not be a good nickname for an army officer.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Cornishman - Thursday 01 October 1914
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 2635
Join date : 2021-01-04

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Re: Horace Smith-Dorrien   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyMon Sep 26, 2022 5:46 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Illustrated War News - Wednesday 28 April 1915
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 2635
Join date : 2021-01-04

Horace Smith-Dorrien Empty
PostSubject: Smith Dorrien's boots   Horace Smith-Dorrien EmptyTue Sep 27, 2022 1:21 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Langport & Somerton Herald - Saturday 25 December 1915

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Dundee People's Journal - Saturday 08 January 1916

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Dundee People's Journal - Saturday 08 January 1916
Back to top Go down
 
Horace Smith-Dorrien
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Could this be Horace Smith-Dorrien.
» Is this Horace Smith-Dorrien.
» Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.
» Martin Foley
» Horace Smith-Dorrien

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: