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» Dr Carver solves the mystery of iSandlwana
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» Ingvald N NIlson
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» Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies
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» Bechuanaland police
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» 17th Lancers
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» Commissary E. W. H. Webb, C.B.
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» Captain Robert Francis Vetch
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» The difference between a Drummer and a Boy in the Band.
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» Zulu Boys Recollection of the Zulu War
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» Remembering the Rebellion - The Zulu Uprising of 1906 Jeff Guy
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» Sergeant Arthur Horatio Still, 12th Lancers
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» Corporal James Lawler 1/24th
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» Quartermaster Michael James Kenny Connaught Rangers
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» Captain Ulick De Burgh
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» I am a happy boy!
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» Patrick Murray, 313, 88th of Foot
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» Zulu Dawn on DVD - better than Blu-Ray?
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» Lieutenant Richard Hawes MacCarthy, 2nd/4th Regiment
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» Howard Molyneux Edward Brunker
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» Location of Special Service Officers 1878/9
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» Cdvs and cabinet card photos wanted
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» Other ranks patrol jacket
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» A Staffordshire Regiment in the Zulu and Zekukuni Campaigns
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» Good website or seller for zulu war era Carte De Visites
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» In search of more service papers
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» Isandlwana solving the enigma
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» Brave mens blood. Frontier Light Horse picture
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» Picture Quiz
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» Platinum Jubilee
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» Trooper G Hennessey (301) Frontier Light Horse
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» Captain Robert Julian Orde Jocelyn 8th Reg
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» Best book on colonial soldiers during zulu war
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» Sergeant E Wilson
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» 1940 Review of 'Lord Chelmsford and the Zulu War'
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90th

90th


Posts : 10482
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Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. Empty
PostSubject: horace smith - dorrien   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyMon Aug 09, 2010 1:51 am

hi all .
Trying to find some info on Smith - Dorrien not being awarded the VC when I found this intersting snippet.
This from the ' Inaugural Edition of the Anglo Zulu War Historical Society Journal '
Editors note........ ' It is of interest , and certainly not very well known , that Buller's recommendation for a V.C to
be awarded to a Capt Duck of the Veterinary Corps for his bravery in acting as rear guard at the Devil's pass was
rejected on the grounds that ' He had no right to be there ' , These journals are full of interesting facts and articles
from the zulu war , if you get a chance to buy them do so as you wont regret it Idea .
cheers 90th.
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1879graves

1879graves


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PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyMon Aug 09, 2010 8:00 pm

Hi 90th

Just a little on Duck

Duck, Sir Francis (17/12/1845 - May 1934)
Born in Catherick on 17 December 1845 he qualified MRCVS (London) on 22 April 1867. In July of 1867 he joined the Royal Artillery and remained in this regiment until 1868 where he did transport duty for the Abassinian Campaign.
He then spent six years in India before coming to the Cape in 1878, and serving in the Gaika and Galika wars (Frontier Light Horse) as well as the Zulu Rebellion of 1879. During the latter campaign ( on 28 March 1879 (he found himself on retreat with his regiment from Hlobane Hill and in order to assist with the withdrawal of his comrades he took a rifle from a dead soldier and acted as part of the rear guard.
He accounted so well for himself in this action that he was recommended for the immediate award of the Victoria Cross. This recommendation was turned down because in the words of his Commander "He had no right (as a veterinary surgeon) to be there". During the same operation he did a post mortem examination on a horse which died after breaking into the food store and eating a bag of tea. He was so carried away with this examination that he did not notice that the rest of this column had moved off. When his absence was observed several hours later, the entire force had to return to find him. General Buller was so annoyed at this delay that he warned Duck to keep out of his way in future. This tea poisoning post mortem was reported to and recorded in the Veterinary Record (Vol. IX, page 430, 1979).
At the battle of Ulundi he took part in a follow up operation when the Zulus "broke". In the pursuit he downed a warrior with a revolver shot in the hip and then killed him in hand-to- hand combat with an assegai. After the Zulu Rebellion he went back to England and did not return to South Africa until 1881.
His second tour of duty in South Africa lasted until 1885 when he served as S.V.S. (later renamed P.V.O.) of the Army Veterinary Department with headquarters in Pietermaritzburg. In this position he took part in the Bechuanaland Campaign (Warren Expedition) of 1884/85 together with other Veterinary Surgeons viz. J.H. Cox, A.H. Gentle, C. Rutherford and J.A. Woods. He succeeded J.D. Lambert as S.V.S. A.V.D. in 1992 and on his departure in 1995 was succeeded as S.V.S. by F.F. Crawford. During August 1993 to March 1884, he relieved Samuel Wiltshire as P.V.O. C.V.D. Natal when the latter proceeded to America to study Texas fever. On his return to England he wrote a report on the Warren Expedition at Aldershot which was subsequently published in the Veterinary Record of 7 January 1911.
From 1894 to 1897 he served as P.V.O. A.V.D. in India. In the latter year he was promoted to the post of Director-General of the A.V.D. (again in succession to J.D. Lambert). He retained this post until 1902 when he retired and was awarded the Knighthood of the Bath. This was the first ever Knighthood bestowed upon a Veterinary Surgeon. After his retirement he settled in Arcturus in Southern Rhodesia where he died in May 1934.
Source ‘Veterinary Surgeons web site’
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Saul David 1879




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Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyMon Aug 09, 2010 9:56 pm

Buller supposedly recommended Duck for the VC. It was Chelmsford who refused to nominate on the grounds mentioned in 1879Grave’s post.
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ADMIN

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Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 9:06 pm

There seems to have been a lot of blocking for whatever reasons.

The Duke of Cambridge wrote to Melville’s farther in April 1879 indicating that his son would have won the V.C if he had survived. Wood requested a similar letter for Campbell’s family but this was block by Wolseley.

Another case.

The Duke of Cambridge felt initially well deposed towards Adendorff. Chelmsford rejected any award for the only man who fought at both engagements, as his early arrival at Rorke’s Drift suggested he had left Isandlwana’ way before he had any right to do so.


(Just a thought)

Most of those that escape Isandlwana made for Helpmakaar, apart from Adendorff. He made for Rorkes Drift to warn them of the disaster at Isandlwana. He must have stay at Isandlwana long enough to know all was lost. Do you think if it weren’t for Adendorff the preparations for the defence would have come to late.

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joe

joe


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PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 9:13 pm

Hi pete/all

How long did Adendorff arive before anyone else from Isandlwana?

Presumabley when Reynolds, Witt and Smith were on Oscarberg and reported the Zulus were no more than 5 minutes away, were they up there because of Adendorff???

And finally how long did it take to build the defences at the drift???

thanks in advance

thanks joe
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littlehand

littlehand


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PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 9:27 pm

If Adendorff. hadn't warn them, i sure Rorke's Drift would have been another Zulu Victory. I would bet money, if it was a British Officer who had turned up to warn them he would have got a V.C.
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joe

joe


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PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 9:33 pm


Quote :
If Adendorff. hadn't warn them, i sure Rorke's Drift would have been another Zulu Victory. I would bet money, if it was a British Officer who had turned up to warn them he would have got a V.C.

I know what your saying... But whether it was Adendorff or a British Officer-It would have still saved 100+ mens lives

thanks joe
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Chard1879

Chard1879


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PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 9:38 pm

Joe.

22nd Jan 1879
At about 3.15pm Chard saw two riders approaching. One of them was Lieutenant Adendorff, of Lonsdale's Natal Native contingent.

At 4.20pm more mounted men were sighted but they only stopped to warn the garrison that the Zulus were coming, then rode to Helpmakaar. This caused panic among Stephenson's native contingent and they all fled.

At about 4.30pm the Zulus were sighted advancing from the south.

23rd Jan 1879
Finally, between 2 and 4pm, the Zulus began to drift away.
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joe

joe


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PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 9:45 pm

Hi
Thanks Chard, Still with Adendorff arriving at 3:15, it still doesnt give much time to organise and build the defences, must have been enough though.

Does anyone know around how long it would have taken to build the defences? , Im guessing it wasnt as slow and relaxed as it was in the film ZULU.

And if Adendorff, didnt stop, they would have only have a maximum of 15 mins to prepare, which obviosly would have ended in disaster.

However, this does bring up one of those 'What if" questions, would they have abandoned the Drift if they only had 15 mins?

thanks joe
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24th

24th


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PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 9:48 pm

So it took nearly an hour before any of the others survivors arrived at R.D. Which brings us back to the question. What time did Adendroff leave Isandlwana.
However I do feel that if it was not for this man Adendroff Littlehand is correct. It would have been another Zulu Victory. Then the good Lord Chelmsford would have been for chop.

Adendroff should have received the V.C
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 9:59 pm

Quote :
'What if" questions, would they have abandoned the Drift if they only had 15 mins?

As soon as they received the news. Plans were made to evacuate Rorke’s Drift. And if it wasn’t for Dalton they would have. Rorkes Drift was ideally located; the Zulu’s needed to negotiate a lot of open ground to reach the defenders. Then there was the building it was a well-fortified position unlike Isandlwana. Cetewayo said, “ Never attack a British fortified position. They did and paid the price. To give you a better understanding of the defences read Chards report.

24th
Quote :
Adendroff should have received the V.C
I won't go that far.
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joe

joe


Posts : 600
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Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 10:05 pm

Chard, thanks, but with 15mins, they couldnt make strong defences, which gives me the thought, if they new they only had 15 mins, they would realise they couldnt make any good defences and choose to try and make a get away.

Quote :
24th Quote:
Adendroff should have received the V.C
I won't go that far.

I agree with you, but what are your reasons?

thanks joe
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Chard1879

Chard1879


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PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 10:10 pm

Joe. Not sure where your getting 15mins. They had approx. 1hour & 15 mins.

At about 3.15pm Chard saw two riders approaching.

4.30pm the Zulus were sighted advancing from the south.

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Chard1879

Chard1879


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PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 10:14 pm

Joe. Heres Chard report. He can tell you better than I can.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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joe

joe


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PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyWed Aug 11, 2010 6:38 am

Chard, I was getting the 15mins from the 'What if" scenario of Adendorff not getting to Rorkes Drift, so the British were just warned by one of the other mounted troops arriving an hour after .

Sorry for the confusion.

thanks joe
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyWed Aug 11, 2010 7:09 am

When Bromhead called Chard up to the mission from the ponts hadnt he allready heard of the battle from another rider? I seem to recall that it was the messenger sent by Gardner from Fugitives Drift that delivered a warning at the same time that Chard received his.
When Chard got back from the ponts, preperations were allready underway.
Chard puts the time at 'around 3.15'. Harry Lugg says 2.40
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyWed Aug 11, 2010 8:02 am

The two riders that warned Bromhead were Privates Whelan and Evans, they had rode the fugitives trail and then been sent by Gardner to warn RD. Interesting day those two had. I cant find them on a list of defenders so I assume they rode on to H.
Anyone shed any light on these two?
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Chard1879

Chard1879


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PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyWed Aug 11, 2010 8:21 am

There are 2 Whelan's both Killed at Isandlwana.

Whelan, Tho. 1184 & Whelan, Jno. 642 .

Never heard of two riders being sent by Gardner?? Interesting.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyWed Aug 11, 2010 9:41 am

Chard
I came across the refernce when looking through the statements of the surviving officers. Gardner mentions it. The names come from Ian Knight.
Chard mentions that when he arrived back at the mission things were underway. So Bromhead already knew.
Just found the details on the two riders.
Private Whelan, 1st/13th LI-No 1 Squadron IMI was listed as a survivor as is Evans 2nd/3rd No 1 Squadron IMI.

Regards
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: whelan and evans   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyWed Aug 11, 2010 10:29 am

hi springbok.
Pvt . Edward Evans attached to the 1st Sqdn MI , escaped via Fugutives Drift to Sand Spruit , then onto R.D , H'makaar
and Umsinga .
Pvt . Daniel Whelan also to the 1st Sqdn MI , escaped the same way as Evans .
This info comes from England's Sons by Julian Whybra .

Evans left a couple of letters and had some extracts published , Whelan as far as is known never left an account .
If anyone wants to know the wherabouts of where Evans accounts were published let me now . Idea .
cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyWed Aug 11, 2010 11:05 am

Hi 90th
Yup let me know. It can add to the FD collection.
Regards
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littlehand

littlehand


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Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyThu Aug 12, 2010 10:48 pm

Petty Officer Tom. Has just posted a letter from Henry Hook to his mother.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Here's an extract from Henry Hook. "After the enemy had fled from the general's camp, they came across the river here and attacked our commissary stores but fortunately we got an hour's warning and made a fort."

Point being he says We got an Hour's warning. Would be worth-while seeing if there are any other times given with ref: to a warning by other defenders.
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Dave

Dave


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Join date : 2009-09-21

Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyFri Aug 13, 2010 12:51 am

Littlehand Extracts from Surgeon-Major Reynolds.

He say’s “"At 1.30 a large body of natives marched over the slope of Isandhlwana in our direction” their purpose evidently being to examine ravines and ruined kraals for hiding fugitives. These men we took to be our native contingent.

Soon afterwards appeared four horsemen (Not Two)

At about 3.30 the enemy made their first appearance in a large crowd on the hospital side of our post, coming on in skirmishing order at a slow slinging run.
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Extracts from Frank Bourne

Having had the warning - but only two hours in advance, as it turned out - we set to work to loophole the two buildings and to connect the front of the Hospital with a stone cattle kraal by sacks of Indian corn and oats, and to draw up two Boer transport wagons to join the front of the Commissariat Stores with the back of the Hospital.


Shortly after 3.30 an Officer commanding a Troop of Natal Light Horse arrived, having got away from Isandhlwana, and asked Lieutenant Chard for instructions. He was ordered to send detachments to observe the Drift and Pontoons, and to place outposts in the direction of the enemy to check his advance.

About 4.15 the sound of firing was heard behind the hill on our front; the Officer returned and reported the enemy close upon us.

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Extracts from Chard's report to Queen Victoria

I then went down to my tent by the river, had some lunch comfortably, and was writing a letter home when my attention was called to two horsemen galloping towards us from the direction of Isandhlwana. From their gesticulation and their shouts, when they were near enough to be heard, we saw that something was the matter, and on taking them over the river, one of them, Lieutenant Adendorff of Lonsdale's Regiment,

About 4.20 p.m. the sound of firing was heard behind the Oscarberg. The officer of Durnford's returned, reporting the enemy close upon us,

4.30 p.m., Hitch cried out that the enemy was in sight, and he saw them, apparently 500 or 600 in number.

45 minutes diffirences Between Reynolds and Bourne relating to the enemy first appearance.

I will look for some more accounts tomorrow scratch
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8231
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyFri Aug 13, 2010 7:14 am

I think Reynolds was confused. 4 horse men did arrive but in seperate sections, 2 men via the drift and 2 from Gardner.
In terms of the times again I wouldnt trust Reynolds version.
Most of the statements made put the Impi arrival within a reasonable time frame, 4:15 to 4:30.
I also think that Reynolds was the only one to commentate about seeing the"large contingent of men coming over the saddle." Surely Reynolds was far to busy getting the wounded evacuated?
As far as I recall it was Rev Smith and De Witt who watched the Impi aproaching from the top of the Oscarberg.

Just some thoughts

Regards
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90th

90th


Posts : 10482
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. Empty
PostSubject: victorian cross's recommended , not nominated.   Victoria Cross’s recommended. But not nominated. EmptyFri Aug 13, 2010 8:06 am

This from ' Padre George Smith Of R.Drift by C.W.M. Lummis M.C.

' East of the Swedish Mission Station at R.Drift was a commanding hill named the Oscarberg . Four men on its summit were
watching to see if there any zulus about since distant firing to the east had been heard . These men were Surgeon - Major
J.H.Reynolds , who was in charge of the military hospital , Revd George Smith , who had with him a telescope , the Swedish
missionary Otto Witt and Pvt . Wall . As soon as he saw some horseman arrive Reynolds descended the hill as he thought they
may need medical treatment . He arrived in time to meet Adendorff and Sgt Vane of the NNC , the latter riding the horse belonging
to Surg - Major Shepherd , the medical officer at Isandlwana . Smith , Witt and Wall had a clear view for some 6 miles . They were
alarmed by the sudden appearance of a large zulu force near the distant bend of the river .
cheers 90th.
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