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 Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER

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ymob

ymob


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PostSubject: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER    Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER  EmptyThu Aug 11, 2011 10:25 am

Hi all,

Book; Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy of the zulu war of 1879" Penguin Book .

P. 129 GARDNER reports "Heavy firing rear left of camp. Shepstone has come in for reinforcements and reports that ZULUS are falling back..."



In others books (Ian Knight...) GARDNER reports "that BASUTOS riders (not the Zulus) are falling back".



What is GARDNER real testimony, zulus or basutos?



Thanks for your help.



YMOB
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER    Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER  EmptyThu Aug 11, 2011 12:47 pm

YMOB
I think you are mixing up two seperate sentances from Gardners statement.
In his report of Spepstones statement he says, " his men are falling back". ie Shepstones men are falling back.
In a further point later in the statement he asks for permission to take mounted men to the Donga, he comments: " the Basutos who were retiring joined forces.
Two seperate occurences involved. Hope that helps.

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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER    Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER  EmptyThu Aug 11, 2011 1:55 pm

scratch Hello Springbok9



It's possible ("I think your are mixed up...from GARDNER statements").

I am vague!!!

This night i will read Ian Knight, Ron Lock, Ian Beckett, Mike Snook and others on the subject!!!!

Thank you very much for your precious help.



(very funny your reply "great great grandfather Chelmsfordthe escap.)



Regards



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Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER    Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER  EmptyThu Aug 11, 2011 8:36 pm

I've read of this confusion before, mainly due to the fact there were Zulus on the British side during the war, several in the N.N.C. particularly. As they dressed pretty much identically to their Zulu opponents, apart from the red headband, perhaps also because some in the British units couldn't tell the various tribes apart, who made up the native units, just referred to them as Zulus too, obviously not realising any written messages stating such, were bound to cause a great deal of misunderstandings.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER    Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER  EmptyThu Aug 11, 2011 11:10 pm

[quote="springbok9"]YMOB
Springbok 9 says:"I think you are mixing up two seperate sentances from Gardners statement...."

Hello Springbok9,

I am sorry but i think i am not wrong!!!


-See Ian Knight "zulu rising" p.352.

GARDNER ...sent a note to his own "Heavy firing near left of the camp. SHEPSTONE has come in for reinforcements and reports the BASUTOS falling back the whole force turned out and firing about 1 mile to left flank"./footnote p. 645 n°6 GARDNER report , WO 33/34, National Archives, London

-See Mike SNOOK "How can man die better" p.175.

GARDNER...and wrote hos own note in further amplification of the situation "Heavy firing to the left of the camp. SHEPSTONE has come in for reinforcements and reports that the BASUTOS are falling back. The whole force at camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank" (no footnote)

-See Ron LOCK and Peter QUANTRILL "Zulu victory, the epic of Isandlwana and the cover-up"(Greenhill books-2005) p.204:
"Heavy firing to left of our camp. SHEPSTONE has come in for reinforcements and reports that the BASUTO's (NNH) are falling back. Whole camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank" (no footnote)


-See R.W.F. DROOGLEVER "The road to isandhlwana" (Greenhill Books -1992) p.211.
...GARDNER penned hos own message and sent it by a second mounted man: "Heavy firing to the left of the camp. SHEPSTONE has come in for reinforcements and reports that the ZULUS are falling back. The whole force at camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank" (no footnote)


it is not know where GARDNER had got the idea that the zulus were falling back.

-See Ian BECKETT"ISANDLWANA 1879" (Battles in focus-Brassey's-2003) p.63
GARDNER chose to amplify this further [ PULLEINE's 2nd note to CHELSMFORD] with his own message:""Heavy firing near left of camp. SHEPSTONE has come in for reinforcements and reports the ZULUS are falling back. The whole force at camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank" (no footnote)
Like PULLEINE's first message to CHELSMFORD, these convoyed no real sense of danger, particulary GARDNER's mistaken emphasis on a zulu withdrawal....


-See David CLAMMER in French (cheers!!!): "La guerre des zoulous" p.67
SHEPSTONE a demandé des renforts et fait état que les ZOULOUS se retirent.
C'était une étrange nouvelle à envoyer à ce moment là....Il est malaisé de deviner d'où "GARDINER"(!) tirait l'opinion que les ZOULOUS battaient en retraîte...


So i repeat my question: "zulus" or "basutos"in GARDNER's message?

I.E sorry for my bad english

Thanks





















































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90th

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PostSubject: Zulu the heroism and tragedy / Gardner    Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER  EmptyFri Aug 12, 2011 3:42 am

HI ymob.
I think the post by Colin answers the question , Gardner likely to be calling the NNC ( zulus ) as being the one's
withdrawing . In other words falling back on the camp that is why Shepstone was calling for reinforcements .
Good luck with your english , it's much better than my French ! :lol!: .
cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER    Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER  EmptyFri Aug 12, 2011 8:28 am

YMOB
Have a look at Gardners original statements.
www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britishguide/zulu/dispatch4_isandhlwana_isandlwana.htm
www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britishguide/zulu/dispatch6_isandhlwana_isandlwana.htm


90th
interesting day tomorrow Wallabies/Springboks


Hope that helps
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER    Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER  EmptyFri Aug 12, 2011 8:52 am

Hi 90th and J. COLIN,



Thanks for the explanations.... and the "encouragements" !!! (It's not easy for me to write in english).



I understand that the historians are shared on the sens of GARDNER's message (zulus or basutos)...

The terme chosen by GARDNER (zulus or basutos) is essential for CHELMSFORD's staff, isn't it?



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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER    Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER  EmptyFri Aug 12, 2011 11:30 am

YMOB
Brickhills testimony:
......at full speed Captain G Shepstone rode into the 1 /24 camp...........he said" Sir I am not an alarmist but the Zulus are in such black masses over there, such long black lines that you have to give us all the assistance you can. They are fast driving our men this way." As he spoke the Basutos ( Durnfords Horse) came retiring over the hill.
Gardner had ridden up during this conversation with a note asking Pulleine to dismantle the camp and so was a party to the conversation.
Pullein then, at Gardeners suggestion wrote to Chelmsford advising of firing to the left and saying he could not move camp at present.
Gardner appended his own comments ' Heavy firing near left of camp.Shepstone has come in for reinforcements and reports the Basutos falling back..........etc.

Its pretty clear that Gardiner has overheard Shepstones report to Pulleine and has passed this message on to his commanding officer. In his not he has confirmed that the Basutos( Durnfords Horse ) have been driven back by the Zulu forces.

I dont have Becket's or Drooglevers books at hand so cant comment on their substitution of the word Basuto for Zulu.

Suffice to say Gardners intelligence stemmed from Shepstones report.

Regards
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90th

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PostSubject: Zulu the heroism and tragedy / Gardner    Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER  EmptyFri Aug 12, 2011 11:39 am

Hi Sprinbok.
Not a big rugby fan , Australian Rules Football and cricket for me . I do know you guys are hard to beat at Rugby .
Sorry about the off topic Pete.
cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER    Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER  EmptyFri Aug 12, 2011 11:49 am

90th
Shame, one day your tastes will develop. :lol!:

It looks as though YMOB has picked up some interesting missprints. I cant get access to a large chunk of my library ( bloody builders again, redoing what they should have done right in the first place). Are you in a position to check up and see what Drooglever and Becketts interpretation of Gardners addendum to Chelmsford says?

regards
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90th

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PostSubject: Zulu the heroism and tragedy / Gardner    Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER  EmptyFri Aug 12, 2011 12:16 pm

Hi Springbok.
Sorry to say I think Drooglever's and Beckett's are the only books on the war that I dont have !!!. Suspect . Shocked .
cheers 90th.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER    Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER  EmptyFri Aug 12, 2011 1:46 pm

...and Saul David ("Zulu the heroïsm...) P. 129 and David Clammer.

I will search next days in others books (Morris, Yorke...).

Nothing on the subject in "Isandlwana" by Adrian Greaves.



(Springbok9: I will read your message this w.e. I don't have my english dictionnary at hand!!!sorry!! / DROOGLEVER and BECKETT interpretation of Gardner's message were postponed in my message / today 12:10am)

Cheers



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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER    Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER  EmptyTue Aug 16, 2011 2:35 pm

Springkbok9 says:"...Its pretty clear that Gardiner has overheard Shepstones report to Pulleine and has passed this message on to his commanding officer. In his not he has confirmed that the Basutos( Durnfords Horse ) have been driven back by the Zulu forces"

Hi Springbok9,



I thus have to undersand that GARDNER wrote in reality "...basutos falling back" (not the zulus).

Your explanation seem logical. Thank you.

I don't understand the misprint of the historians...



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