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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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» A Case of Mistaken Identity?
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» What happened next
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» Surgeon Espine Charles Ward
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» 2nd Lieutenant William Lancelot James, 2nd/4th Regiment.
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» Explaining Amabutho in one word??
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» Colonel William,Egerton Saunders, C.B
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» Lieutenant-Colonel David Campbell Williamson.
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» Brigade Surgeon E. J. Boulton
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» Victorian HMS SHAH South Africa Zulu Wars Medal William Morrison Royal Navy
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» South African 1879 Zulu War medal to Corp R Starkey 57th Regiment of Foot
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» Strange tales from Isandlwana
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» Colour - Sergeant George William Mabin
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» Militaria Sale
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» Men of the 24th Regiment of Foot - Secunderabad, India 1873
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» Malicious website
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» Rorkes drift Hotel
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» Durnford's medical officer
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» Charles Sparks - any information available?
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 Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7578
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 10:05 am

Those items posted by Steve incidentally relate to well before hostilities, May 12th so at least 1878.

Cheers
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 11:23 am

Morning all.

Your right Frank about the date of the extracts I posted. I think it is helpful, in drawing out a picture of Durnford, to seek out references to him in the years between BRP and Isandhlwana. We should not be overly influenced  by attitudes towards him once the Frere/Chelmsford conspiracy to start a war with the Zulu had begun. Once that was in train, as 6pdr says, Durnford's way of thinking became a potential blockage to their plans and had to be controlled.  His attachment to the Colensos was a perfect excuse to marginalise him.

I would be interested to see evidence of a negative attitude to Durnford by the Army during this time (I discount the Colonists). All I have found so far sings his praises and it is reflected in his appointments. You can never discount the old boy network at this time but I think it is much more than that.

At the end of the day, it should be remembered that Chelmsford knew the game was up after Isandhlwana and would be replaced as soon as Wolseley was in a position to relieve him of command (and so he hurriedly mounted the second invasion). And of course Frere was summoned home in 1880 and censured for his actions once Gladstone was in power. Compared to them, Durnford comes out of it all with much the better reputation in my view.

But lets keep looking.

Steve
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 12:16 pm

Hi Steve
I think if Durnford had come out of 1879 with an enhanced reputation we wouldn't be discussing him so much. But in general the balance of the participants reputations were in tatters.
I posted some where on this thread that I firmly believe the rumours about Durnford and Fanny were started by a PMB society that never forgave him for the comments he made after BP, not because of any actions. Again I would contend that if he had published a ( False I know ) glowing tribute to the fallen colonists, he would have been a lionised member of the 'circle'.

Cheers
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6pdr

6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 3:37 pm

rusteze wrote:
Your right Frank about the date of the extracts I posted. I think it is helpful, in drawing out a picture of Durnford, to seek out references to him in the years between BRP and Isandhlwana. We should not be overly influenced  by attitudes towards him once the Frere/Chelmsford conspiracy to start a war with the Zulu had begun. Once that was in train, as 6pdr says, Durnford's way of thinking became a potential blockage to their plans and had to be controlled.  His attachment to the Colensos was a perfect excuse to marginalise him.

I would be interested to see evidence of a negative attitude to Durnford by the Army during this time (I discount the Colonists). All I have found so far sings his praises and it is reflected in his appointments. You can never discount the old boy network at this time but I think it is much more than that.

agree

Fervent agreement that quotes prior to the big events are invaluable because they represent what people thought of his character before they started letting responses to the Boundary Commission and Isandlwana fit their image of him to their politics.

I also take Frank's point about not underestimating the power of the old boy network. Certainly it is partially responsible for Durnford having opportunities after his breakdown etc...

But I would also point out that in a sense Frank also agrees with what you and I are saying. At least that's MY interpretation of his supposition that had Durnford simply extolled the Carabineers in the local newspaper he would have been/remained part of the inner circle (or at least until the boundary decision.)

It's an interesting question as to whether becoming an outcast opened his mind to the Colensos or whether he was the type of man to seek out more than ordinary colonial society could offer to begin with. Might be a chicken or an egg proposition but then again, it's been awhile since I read Jeff Guy. He might have something to say on that topic.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 3:57 pm

I love reading Jeff, but you do have to look carefully. He was an ardent Marxist, I don't decry that but it did colour his views. Ive got an impromptu map he drew of Isandlwana and I have to admit its been a cornerstone of my thinking re disposition.
And yes I do agree with your thoughts to a great degree. And I cant stress enough the esteem that the graduates were held in. The Hurah Henries did look down on them, but that was a fare mixture of jealousy and envy plus sheer bloody snobbishness.
Gordon was a key figure in Durnfords rehab,
Durnford and the Colensos were always going to find each other, Jeffs book on the Colensos is a classic, if you haven't read it, do it.

Cheers
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Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 4:02 pm

The truth is that Frances Ellen loved Durnford deeply!
as all know her book published under the name of
Atherton Wylde was written when she was beset by
grief..and was in effect a love letter to him.. i too 
need to read Guy again. the view across the river, 
and his last work about shepstone, also rees's letters
from Natal, i will have a look later this evening..xhosa
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Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 4:07 pm

And i don't think Guys politics has any bearing on anything..
what were you thoughts when you wrote that springbok.
my last few post concerning you seem to lack your usual
context and some you don't answer at all. regarding my
thinking for myself for instance, springs to mind as i type. 
                                                                     xhosa
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 4:17 pm

Evening Les
Nothing intended my friend. I am again in hospital and my allocated time to use my laptop is limited, Plus I get very tetchy, stroppy bastard is my wives description.
I do believe that Jeffs political leanings were everything about his works and views, Hopefully some time next year I will be able expand it

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Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 4:26 pm

Sorry man, i did not know you was in dock! take it easy
your health is more important than any of this.  Les
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6pdr

6pdr

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
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Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 4:44 pm

springbok9 wrote:
I am again in hospital and my allocated time to use my laptop is limited, Plus I get very tetchy, stroppy bastard is my wives description.

Shocked  I am very unhappy to hear that Frank!   Surprised   Bloody unfair time of year to find yourself laid up.  Is this why you have been waking up at ungodly hours of the morning?  Well, I won't blame you if you don't want to "share" (in the American sense) details here but you really should have mentioned being in hospital sooner. I hope they can get you home before Santa arrives.  Merry Christmas      

Quote :
I do believe that Jeffs political leanings were everything about his works and views, Hopefully some time next year I will be able expand it

How can a writer's political views NOT inform his/her work?  Being a Marxist doesn't preclude fairness any more than any other political leaning.  And even some of the most prominent AZW historians seem to have looked at East South African history from the Marxist angle when writing on political solutions to the issues of labor and population control.  

That said, THE VIEW ACROSS THE RIVER is simply an amazing piece of scholarship IMO.  (This doesn't imply you anyone has to agree with its conclusions but we must grapple with the breadth and depth of the research.)

Regardless, get well soon Frank.  We need you here in full fighting trim!  Salute
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyMon Dec 22, 2014 5:42 pm

Echo that Frank. Hope you can quickly have done with these purveyors of snake oil and get back on the road.

All the very best.

Steve
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 8:57 am

Sprinkbok, sorry to hear your back in hospital. Is it the routine checkup stage. Or have you been over doing in again.
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 10:33 am

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
Sprinkbok, sorry to hear your back in hospital. Is it the routine checkup stage. Or have you been over doing in again.

Bonjour Frank,
Écho CTE
If only Mister Jackson was in thé same hospital...
All thé best.
amitié
Frédéric
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http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7578
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Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 12:05 pm

CTSG
Spent a few days under observation, later today they are putting in a couple of stents so should be out tomorrow all being well.
Ymob
Believe me if David was in the same ward he wouldn't get to much peace and quiet.

Cheers
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Colonel Durnford's Camp BRP    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 1:00 pm

Springy , if you and DJ were in the same hospital , let alone ward , the hospital wouldnt have much peace or quiet ! , I'd like to be as sure as winning the Lottery that'd be the case ! LOL Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
90th Merry Christmas Salute
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6pdr

6pdr

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 3:28 pm

90th wrote:
Springy , if you and DJ were in the same hospital , let alone ward , the hospital wouldnt have much peace or quiet !

I'm sure they wouldn't stay in the general population. No They'd listen to the patter for only so long before moving the two of them to a mental ward. Exclamation
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass    Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass  - Page 3 EmptyTue Dec 23, 2014 4:57 pm

What a documentary that would make. Two old codgers putting the Zulu War to right. Both wired to the moon, and intravenous fed mulled wine. agree

Get one of the nurses to chuck in a few quotes from Drooglever.
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Colonel Durnford's camp at the foot of the Bushman's River Pass
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WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: LINKS & IMAGES RELATING TO THE ZULU WAR 1879-
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