Isandlwana, Last Stands

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:11 pm

I would be fairly convident that Knight does his research before putting pen to paper. Thus saving me time going to the Achives, plus being the most leading authority on the Anglo Zulu War he has a reputation to maintain. That's what sells books.

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:15 pm

Well, yes, but he does make the occasional error (or typo) and there isn't always room to include primary sources in full. I do know that he was rushed by the publishers into finishing Zulu Rising and was a little dissatisfied with it. Actually, I think what sells books is anything with Zulu in the title, or so publishers tell me. The market will stand a new Zulu book once every two years apparently.

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:41 pm

Perhaps the answer would be for someone to publish a book using nothing but primary source material.

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:47 pm

90th.

Quote :: Hi Littlehand.
I'm with Julian on this one , I've also read somewhere over the years ! , that Fripp's painting is meant to depict Clr Sgt Wolfe
and his band of 20 odd . The Central Figure in the painting with the bandaged head is indeed a Sgt .

I made no comment to who the painting depicted. I just posted the image as an example.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Did Fripp ever go to Isandlwana before painting it ?

He was at Ulundi

Cheers

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:00 pm

There's a write up here on the painting.

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Just out of interest.

"In one of the most iconic paintings depicting the Battle of Isandlwana, a work by British artist Charles Fripp, a British commander can be seen pushing a bugle boy from his regiment ahead of him in an act of mercy, so that the youth could be killed quicker. Or so the story goes."

I never saw it like that. ?

Subject: Isandlwan , last stands . Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:20 pm

Hi Littlehand .
Sorry mate , I was replying to your earlier post of 12.34 am , where you posted ; Quote '' Wolfe and his 20 men being left behind '' unquote . Your reply was '' How do we Know this '' thats why I posted my reply to you in regard that the main person in the picture is indeed a Sgt .
cheers mate , 90th . Salute

Subject: Isandlwan , last stands . Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:50 pm

Hi Littlehand .
Forgot to mention , I agree with you ; I never saw it as an officer pushing him forward either . I cant tell whether its an officer behind the boy for a start . Also looking at the painting the soldier in front of the boy is in the act of falling , if anything the chap behind , and the sgt seem to be either supporting or bracing the boy from an impact of the falling soldier . Thats how I see it anyway , the boy appears to be pointing in the direction of the next immediate threat , he seems to be pointing to the direction from where the falling soldier has received his fatal wound !. Hope this makes sense !. Salute

cheers 90th. Salute

Guest

Hi 90th and others...

90th ,thank you again for what you know ...

The drummer boy designates a future Zulu assault.

He designated with his finger and he insists "but look, look!" for the sergeant does not look ...

Cheers

Pascal

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:36 am

I never saw it like that either and I don't think from my memory of a Fripp biography that he did either (though he did visit Z). More artistic licence perhaps?
Re the primary-source only book...I think Jackson has already written it. After all, every single statement of fact is sourced.

Posts : 553 Join date : 2009-10-14 Location : Loughborough

Fripps paintings carry as much dramatic emphasis as he can cram in, his painting depicting the battle of Tofrek has the same human emphasis, look at the man in his shirt sleeves on the right being helped by his mate, the dead and wounded on the ground in similar postures, but to me, look to the left, a private of the Berkshires shooting at point blank range a screaming Fuzzy Wuzzy and the clubbed rifles used in defence.

Fripps Isandlwana doesn't portray the final moments as the squares begin to disintegrate, pehaps it was not good for public consumption, but by 1885 the noble savage, as portrayed in many a poem by Kipling can be seen as a worthy adversary.

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Look whats odd?, very few have fixed bayonets, Fripp can be both picked out for being historically correct, and innacurate at the same time. At Tofrek the Mhadist attack was so unexpected and violent it is pandemonium at its worst, and few men had the chance to "fix up" before the assault hit home. Fripp picks up on this, Isandlwana, he has identified P53/74 bayonets on some of the mens Martini's.

Guest

Hi all

Fripp Isandhlwana painting is more dramatic for the conclusion is quite different and the dervishes are not the same charms that Zulu, because they did not make prisoners ...

Purpose without the drummer boy, this painting would be less dramatic ...

Cheers

Pascal

Subject: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:30 am

Regarding the Fripp painting.

I don't think the bearded gent behind the young lad is an officer, and it does appear that the sgt is attempting to shield the lad. Pascal seems to have got it right, the young lad seems to be pointing and saying "look at all this lot", you can just picture the sgt's hand then coming forward to collect the bullet being offered by the wounded soldier on the ground. The soldier over on the right (with his bayonet in the Zulu shield), looks like he is about to meet his maker by the axe held by the other Zulu. The look of defiance by the soldier taking a round from his pouch (to the right of the the young lad), seems to have been added to show the public the steadfast attitude of the British soldier. Fripp got it wrong with the regimental colour though, but I suppose it was included to show a sort of 'rallying point' or to show 'the men defending the colour' in a no hope situation. Although very romanticised, all in all a very good painting, and one that I would quite happily hang on my wall.

Martin. Salute

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:39 am

Quote :: the young lad seems to be pointing and saying "look at all this lot",

Possibly " Look where are those officers going"

Subject: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:45 am

Nice one LH :lol: :lol:

Subject: Isandlwana , last stands . Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:53 am

Littlehand .
Did bring a smile to my face also !!. Very Happy

.

Martin .
I have it hanging on my wall , and I can tell you I've had it for a few years , and whenever I tend to look at it I find something I hadnt seen before !. That's the weird thing about its detail . Plus I dont look at it with detail very often either !. Salute

.
It is obviously not 100 % correct , but there is something about it which makes you think about it !. Hope that makes some sense .
cheers 90th. Salute

Subject: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:22 pm

Hi Gary

I have the painting on my computer, and I do often look at it, somehow it seems to draw you into it, and yes, like you, I often find something I hadn't spotted before. It is a very good painting, he was a good artist was Fripp, something like the style of Richard Caton Woodville, he also did some very good paintings of famous battle scenes, his Charge of the Light Brigade into the valley of death is brilliant. Another good Charge of the Light Brigade painting by an almost unknown artist called C. Clark, is a fantastic painting, very atmospheric. It shows Lord Cardigan at the head of the Brigade, charging through the Russian lines, Russians running for cover, the look and position of the horse he is riding is brilliant. Like you say, there is something about these sort of paintings that just draw you to them.

Hope all is well down there mate.

Martin. Salute

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:22 pm

"Colonel Glyn of the 24th had asked that his regiment be allowed to bury their own dead at some later date (Knight 1992:128). This task had to wait until 20th June 1879, when a party of the 2/24th under Lieutenant Colonel Black worked until the 26th June, digging shallow graves to receive the remains of their colleagues. Although stones were placed on the graves, it was not long before reports were received that further work would be required (Knight 1992:130).

On instructions from General G.P. Colley, Brevet Major C.J. Bromhead camped at Isandlwana on the 19th September 1879. Bromhead claimed that his party had cleaned up the debris which was then burnt or buried, had reburied those bodies which had become partially exposed, and had buried those found still lying in the open. Three large stone cairns were built where the largest number of bodies had been found together (Knight 1992:130).

Despite these efforts, reports of exposed bodies continued to be received. On the 20th February 1880 General Sir Garnet Wolseley instructed Lieutenant M. O’Connell of the 60th Rifles to attend to the battlefield. This party was at Isandlwana from 13 – 26 March and collected and buried all visible bones. The cairns which were built mark the spots where the bones, collected over a wide area, were buried, and not the places where individual men fell. Similarly, the bones of some soldiers who had been buried in dongas and watercourse and had become exposed, were reburied on higher ground (Knight 1992:130).

Over the next two years visitors to Isandlwana repeatedly commented that human bones were still to be seen, and Alfred Boast, a civil servant, was put in charge of a party, instructed by the Lieutenant-Governor, to see that all the remains were properly interred. This was carried out between 12 February and 10 March 1883, and Boast submitted a report from Greytown on 13 March in which he described how 298 graves were dug, containing between 2 and 4 skeletons each. Cairns were built on the graves, and where possible, the identity of the fallen was marked (Paper 1078/1883, Natal Archives)".

1993

Following the 1992/93 rainy season one of us (MT) observed accelerated lateral erosion in a particular donga that threatened to collapse two cairns. One of the cairns was already beginning to slump down the donga slope and spilled bone fragments from the underlying burial pit were being exposed. The possibility of exposed human remains washing away downstream in full public view was sufficient motivation for us to recommend exhuming their contents and re-interring these in a more stable area nearby.
The KwaZulu Monuments Council was requested to authorise these excavations, and the subsequent re-interment of any mortal remains. This was approved subject to the obtaining of a letter of No Objection from the Ministry of Interior and the requisite notification of interested and affected parties.

THE EXCAVATIONS

The two cairns in question are located between two actively eroding dongas below the access road that traverses the battlefield. They are according to the Isandlwana Battlefield Site plan 10155/1 (dated 22.10.1986, Natal Provincial Administration Works Department) designated Cairn 27 (C27) and Cairn 28 (C28).
The laying out of a 1x3m grid with 50cm intervals and the removal of all the rocks that made up the cairn preceded excavations. Once the top of the burial pit had been exposed the surrounding top soil was removed in 5cm spits. Ten centimetres below the surface bone fragments began to appear in the soil that was being sieved. The +- 10cm overlay of soil was then removed over an area of 1m square to expose the edge of the burial pit. We were then able to trace the lip of the pit to where it had begun to slump into the adjacent donga. The contents of the pit were then removed in further 10cm spits and sieved. These comprised a brown loam soil with visible bone fragments adhering to the matrix. The pit-edge was defined by an observable fall-off in bone residues and a more compact substrate. Spillage out of the confines of the pit was evident where it abutted with the donga wall. This comprised a lighter, grey soil matrix and a greater concentration of bone fragments than in the pit itself.
At the 20cm level, two rocks, probably comprising a part of the original infill, were removed from the slump side of the pit. In removing the next 10cm spit we observed a marked drop-off in bone fragment frequency at the sieve. At 30cm below the surface the soil became hard and closely compacted and no further bone remains were evident. Spillage out of the side of the pit also ceased at this level. Excavations were then terminated on this sterile base and the sieve contents and sieved matrix were re-interred. The cairn was the re-erected on its original location.

THE FINDS

In the 10cm surface overlay a metal screw and two iron nails were retrieved at the sieve. In the following spit various pieces of miscellaneous metal fragments were retrieved. However, because of their fragmented and distorted nature, positive identification was not possible. The only diagnostic objects were a soft-metal backing platform from a four-eyed button and a shrapnel piece.
The majority of the bone material we retrieved at the sieve was in the size order of 5-15mm, much of it in fact falling through the 5mm mesh of the sieve in use. A few larger but a diagnostic pieces were also retrieved. The only identifiable fragments were a possibly piece of the articular process of a mandible, a phalange and a fragment of an indeterminable limb bone. No other artefacts or any other diagnostic human skeletal material was evident.

CONCLUSION

Our desk study shows that the battlefield was visited by a number of burial parties in the four years post the battle. Many of the cairns visible at Isandlwana today are likely to be the results of Boast’s work, superimposed on and modifying the efforts of the earlier burial parties. It is likely that only those graves in the Colonial Cemetery mark the burials of known individuals, the others being the repositories of partial remains collected from the open, from earlier incomplete interment, and from the dongas. Most of the cairns cannot be seen as marking the place where a soldier fell.
The fragmentary nature of the bone residues is a consequence of their reported long exposure to the elements post the battle, and their successive re-interments. The soils in the region are known to be acidic and together with the former these have accelerated the natural processes of decay. The dearth of artefacts, the a diagnostic nature of the skeletal remains and the re-interment procedures that have occurred, collectively suggested that Boast’s cairns have limited archaeological value. They would thus not warrant focused attention in the event of a large scale archaeological investigation of the site. We conclude therefore, that as a management strategy, any future erosion threat to the cairns at the battlefield be countered by the following:
Firstly, any slumping cairn should be stabilised in situ by the packing of further rocks around its base, and secondly, attempts should be made to stem the rate of erosion by recognised donga reclamation techniques. These means are probably justified at most other historical sites in the region that are experiencing similar problems. By these actions, the integrity and sanctity of the site can best be preserved.

REFERENCES

Knight, Ian. 1992. “Zulu. Isandlwana and Rorke’s Drift. 22nd January 1879”. London. Withdrow & Greene.

Van Schalkwyk L.O. 1992. A new relevance for old monuments: the Isandlwana Model. Paper presented at the Southern Africa Museums Association Conference. Durban.

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:53 pm

90th
I had my painting stolen during a house move – at least it shows it’s popular – thieves with taste? The man behind the boy is not an officer by the way and Fripp painted the landscape in situ at Isandhlwana as part of his Graphic assignment.

All
I thought you might like these reviews taken from The Art Journal 1885 and The Athenaeum 20th June 1885.
The Last Stand at Isandlhula [original title]
“It shows the closing stages of the battle with the remaining force forming a tiny square against the Zulu attack, while in the background, individual redcoated figures are lost in a sea of native warriors. The contrast between the attitudes of British infantry and the Zulus suggests a civilised superiority in the former, despite their being outnumbered by savage hordes. The scene is one of violence as well as heroism, but despite this and the accuracy with which the site of the battle, overshadowed by the distinctive hill of Isandhlwana, was painted, the picture made little impact at the Royal Academy. The subject had hardly been a glorious defeat and it was no longer topical. The stoicism of the central figures and the fatherly way in which the wounded sergeant steadies the young drummer boy were also possibly too implausible for the Academy audience, given the known circumstances of the action. The reviewers preferred Godfrey Douglas Giles’s less formally structured painting The battle at Tamaai, Soudan Campaign 1884."

Posts : 1093 Join date : 2009-01-14 Location : East London

Fripp.

"He was influenced by his father, the landscape artist George A Fripp, and he studied art in Nuremberg and at the Royal Academy of Munich. He is primarily known as an illustrator, in which capacity he worked for The Graphic from 1875 onwards, and the Daily Graphic from 1890 until 1900. Fripp spent many years in southern Africa covering the Ninth Kaffir, Zulu, Boer (1881 and 1899) and Matabele Wars; he was also 'special artist' in the 1885 campaign in Sudan, and covered a number of foreign wars including the Sino-Japanese conflict of 1894-95 and the Philippine insurrection of 1899. He also held a commission in the Artist's Rifles for 13 years. A number of his original sketches and water-colours survive but he is chiefly remembered for his painting 'The Last Stand at Isandhlula (Isandhlwana)'. (National Army Museum) which was exhibited at the Royal Academy in 1885. His only other Academy picture was his 1886 canvas, 'The attack on General Sir John McNeil's force near Suakim' (Duke of Edinburgh's Royal Regiment). The former picture resulted from his activities in the Zulu War which he recounted in an article published in 1900. He arrived at Durban on March 20th, 1879 and joined Lord Chelmsford's column for the relief of Etshowe. Fripp witnessed an attack on the British camp on April 2nd, and Chelmsford's successful relief of Pearson's force at Etshowe. Later he was in the column that discovered the body of the Prince Imperial which he vividly described, and his final account was of the battle at Ulundi which he sketched as he lay on the leather roof of an ammunition cart. He wrote: Now and again a bullet sighed overhead as I watched the beautiful advance of the enemy rapidly spreading over the undulations, disappearing and reappearing as the inequalities were traversed. The landscape in the Isandhlwana picture was drawn, no doubt, on the spot. Similarly the Suakim picture was a result of his participation with General Graham's second expedition from which he submitted many sketches which appeared in the Graphic".

Guest

Hi all

Finally it is true that this type of painting is beautiful, but the reality of soldiers in the field is alway less rosy ...

Especially at this time ... And African warriors in photos never look terrible, they often have a big belly, slender limbs, looking worried, ect ...

Cheers

Pascal

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:46 pm

Comme Sarkozy?

Subject: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:22 pm

Hello OH2

Good post, very interesting read.

Thank you. Salute

Subject: Isandlwana - Last Stands Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:07 am

Hi Julian .
Certainly seems to have been thieves with taste , as it isnt the sort of Picture you would come across very often ! . Are you going to get another ? . Salute

cheers 90th.

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:21 am

Cant be based on CS Wolff.
Look at the angle of the mountain and compare it with H Companies stand.

Regards

Guest

Hi all

No Julian, the Zulus are less ugly anyway!

Him I can not classify ethnically, a mere " chimera ", too many different origins, unlike me, for example ...

Cheers

Pascal

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:24 am

Springbok
Actually, I think it does align with the mountain and Wolfe's position at the rocky outcrop. The view is certainly looking at the mountain from the north-east, don't you think? I'm willing to be persuaded though!

Posts : 225 Join date : 2011-09-19

Hi Martin

Did Fripp really get it wrong with regard to the Regimental Colour ? Could this not be the Regimental Colour of the SECOND Battalion, which was lost on the battlefield ? It is feasible to believe this colour (and also the Queen's Colour) could have been taken from the guard tent and used as a rallying point in one of the "squares".

Bill

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:45 pm

Julian

I dont know if you have a photo of the memorial at the H company stand, just to the left of the Iron Cross. Take a ten yard step backwards and its an exact match.
Wolff was, as you quite rightly point out east North east, I have a photo of that position with the mountain more side on.
Frip gets a good South East, possibly backing to SSE for his painting of the Bastion face.

Bill

It would be rather wonderful melodrama if that could be proved, its rather a long haul however back to that position from the Guard Tent. Dependant on timing of course any Brave soul that would have born the flag down that far from the saddle would probably have had to pass the NMP, Durnford and possible E and F company. So who then would the Sgnt in the painting, Cooper maybe?

My little quirk on the painting is of course I wonder how the Sgnt managed to get his head bandaged?

I love Victorian Melodrama so Im happy to go along with you.

regards

Posts : 225 Join date : 2011-09-19

Hi Sprinbok9

And it might help to identify who the man is by the fact that he is a LANCE Sergeant - there were only FOUR of these killed at Isandlwana (unless Julian has found any more !):

1/24 232 Milner/1260 Reardon
2/24 1217 Haigh/1755 McCaffery

So you have a 25% chance here !

Bill

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:53 pm

Bill

Interesting Ive got Reardon down as a full Sgt, need to correct that.
If the postulation on the painting being H Company carries weight we would be then down to either John Milner or John Reardon, I dont have a record of the Companies they belonged to. Can anyone go further?

Regards

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:07 pm

Bill
I have Reardon down as as a full sergeant but with the date of his promotion unknown in late 1878 (as per Holme).
Any reason why you believe this not to be the case?

Posts : 225 Join date : 2011-09-19

Hi Julian

Ranks per medal roll.

Bill

Subject: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:34 pm

Bill

If this is the colour of the 2nd btn, then I have to agree with springbok and say that what you suggest it is a bit of a long shot.

Maybe Fripp used a bit of 'licence' and painted the stripes white to stand out more than gold, if not, and the figure is a lance sgt, then again I have to agree with springbok and Julian, and say that in 'Holmes' book, he has shown Reardon as being a full sgt, so we are down to three lance sgts, and if this painting is depicting 'H' coy of the 2nd btn, then that leaves us with just two lance sgts.

According to Holme, Haigh was in 'G' coy, and McCaffery was in 'A' coy, so who is the lance sgt depicted in the painting?

Holme does not say what coy/s Reardon and Milner were in.

Martin.

Posts : 553 Join date : 2009-10-14 Location : Loughborough

Springie

In 2009 I took a copy of Fripp to try and get the angles that he would have potentially taken to do his preparatory sketches, You know as well as I do, the mountain changes shape as you move around it.

Here the image, and when scaled it is just about right, his position "Hypothetically was just on the side of the road, which would have been the 1 Battn camp,

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Subject: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:04 pm

Hi springbok

Replied to you on the 14th Feb regarding Durnford wanting to borrow the two companies of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment to form a line to fall back on. It is in the book 'Zulu Victory' by Lock and Quantrill, read from page 180 and you will see (or rather read) what I refer to.

Martin.

Subject: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:11 pm

Hi Neil

Good photo that mate, it looks spot on to me.

Martin.

Subject: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:33 pm

Further to the Fripp painting. It don't think it can depict Wolfe, he was a colour sgt, and would have had gold stripes with crossed union flags and crown, unless of course Fripp used a bit of 'licence' (as he seems to have done with the bandaged head), and painted white stripes to show up better than gold, and just depicted the figure as a lance sgt, but if this is the case, then I wonder who he had in mind?

Martin.

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:09 pm

Colour-Sergeants:
Brown, T. 1118
Ballard, J. 1125
Edwards, W. 1289
Wolfe, F. H. 617

Sergeants
Ainsworth, P. 1699
Bennett, G. 1895
Bradley D. 909
Clarkson, Jno. 954
Coholan, Wm. 1019
Cooper, T. 1313
Edwards, Jno. 1881
Fay, Thos, 1849
Fowden, J. 315
Gamble, D. 570
Giles, E. 968
Greatores, J. 1754
Heppenstall, C. 1806
Horn-brook, M. 824
Parsons, Wm. 581
Pilla A. 1045
Smith, Jno. 1370
Upton, G. 565

Lance-Sergeants
Milner, Jno. 232
Reardon, Jno 1260

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

Interesting to see the cairns in Neill's photo are roughly in the same location of where the soldiers are in the painting.

"Emma Mawdsley:
This is the most popular painting in the National Army Museum Collection, which is actually rather surprising since it shows the defeat of the British Army by non-European troops. It was the first occasion when the British Army had been beaten so completely by non-European troops.

In 1879, the small garrison at Isandlwana was attacked by a force of 20,000 Zulu warriors and, though they fought valiantly, they were routed.

The artist, Charles Edwin Fripp, wasn't a witness to this scene but he did visit the battlefield with Chelmsford's force some four weeks later and the bodies were still lying unburied, rotting on the ground.

Fripp depicted the Zulu fighting technique very accurately. He shows how the Zulu uses his shield to attract the soldier who bayonets through the shield. He then lifts it up and almost disarms the soldier because his bayonet is through the shield so he can't retract it. And in the meantime the Zulu then attacks from underneath the shield and stabs the soldier in the stomach using his spear, called an iklwa.

Iklwa is an onomatopoeic word which describes the noise that the weapon makes as it's thrust into the body and then withdrawn - a sort of sucking noise.

Some elements were included for dramatic effect, such as this drummer boy here who looks 12 or 13, younger than any drummer boy present at the battle of Isandlwana. The average age of the drummer boys at Isandlwana was about 24.

Fripp's great achievement in this painting is transforming the chaos of battle into a heroic last stand."

Subject: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:41 pm

Hi all

Whilst looking online I came accross another colour sgt of the 1st btn by the name of Whitfield. W. No 1887.

Also came accross another lance sgt of the 2nd btn by the name of Williams. T. No1328.

The list also shows Reardon 1260 as being a lance sgt, so maybe Holme got it wrong.

I found the above on despatches 1879 despatch5 casualties at Isandlwana.

Martin.

Subject: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:59 pm

Further to my post above.

I have found Whitfield William colour sgt 1887 1st btn 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, in Holmes book (The Noble 24th), however, it does not say what company he was with.

I cannot find a lance sgt Williams. T. No 1328 2nd btn 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment in Holmes book under Isandlwana, however, he is shown at Rorke's Drift, 'B' coy. Died of his wound, buried at RD cemetery.

So it appears that the 1879 despatches Isandlwana casualties list could be wrong.

Martin.

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:51 am

Neil

Looks pretty good to me, I have a series of photos taken from the foot of Blacks right around the perimeter, yours is about the closest.

Martin

The phrase " Most likely" would be the key issue on the use of the two companies requested. In other words Ron Lock has sumised/deduced. Its a reasonably deduction considering my point made of foot soldiers slowing down the Durnford express, but it is just that, one authors deduction. No more no less.

Bill

When Mike Snook compiled his lists for his two books I assume he would have used regimental records, I would if I was in his position, He also has John Reardon listed as a full Sgt.

Regards

Guest

Hi all

In all cases they seem far from the Mount ,this handles of hero...

For the wrong color stripes on the painting, it's just artistic license ...

Cheers

Pascal

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:25 am

Martin
L&Q's remark about why Durnford wanted the two coys is mere conjecture, they have no evidence they were to be used as a screen. The actual reason he wanted them just isn't known.
Re the painting, Fripp used a large dollop of artistic licence and so allowed his imagination free rein - the flag, the rank, the bandage, the boy - I wouldn't use the painting to attempt to identify individual lance-sergeants.
Neil
Not convinced by the photo-painting position I'm afraid. The angle of the lion's 'back' looks wrong. On the other hand, you were on the spot, so to speak.

Guest

JULIAN :L&Q's remark about why Durnford wanted the two coys is mere conjecture, they have no evidence they were to be used as a screen. The actual reason he wanted them just isn't known.

Durnsford wanted these two companies, because in his mind the Zulu army would attack Chelmfords in his rear and he would help him by making a diversion in the back of the zulu army ...

The mind boggles at the thought of Durnford, it was really "à coté de la plaque"...

When the poor Pulleine refused him the two coys, he replied "Very well, perhaps I had better not take them;I will go with my own troops"...

Anyway, if they had come with him, he would not have expected these two coys and they were massacred near the camp as the rocket battery and for the same reasons.

sacred Durnsford

Cheers

Pascal

Subject: Isandlwana, Last Stands Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:26 pm

Pascal

Perhaps if "The Poor Pulleine" had used his "Little Grey Cells" long before Col Durnford arrived, things just might have been different.

Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21

This from ( Mike) I'm assuming ( Col: Mike Snook) for those members that have been to Isandlwana I hope you can confirm if ths is feasible.

"There were indeed 5 & 170+ members of the 2nd Battalion but not all of them would have been forward on the firing line. As you know Pulleine gave the order that every man who could carry a rifle should be brought forward - and this would bring the great majority down to the firing line - but it would not for example bring down the pioneer section which would be assisting the QM, nor the bandmaster and boy bandsmen etc. So the number actually forward with Pope is an indeterminate one. But let us say for the sake of argument 85-90 men in G Coy and another 60 joining them - call it 150.

Always worth going back to 1964 and Donald Morris and asking yourself the question why do people believe this or that or the other. QM 1st 24th would not issue ammunition to 1st Bn runners (and vice versa). There it is in black and white. Pulleine was killed in his tent writing a last letter. There it is in black and white. Younghusband fought from the back of a wagon. There it is in black and white. And in the case of your particular query - Charlie and Fred are the last to die and the scene takes place in the saddle - there it is in black and white. We think it because we all read the Washing of the Spears as kids. As I got older I stumbled across evidence which suggested some things that I had always taken as fact, because I read it in Morris, were not even remotely grounded in history. I have quoted just a handful of examples above. There is in fact not a jot of history to support any of the above contentions. Eventually I put Morris to one side and came to regard it as little more than a Norse saga type approximation of a real historical event. So let me rhetorically turn your question around and say to you, 'On the basis of what piece of historical evidence should we conclude that the Charlie-Fred death scene (as described by the induna - two men with glass eyes etc) is set in the saddle?' Answer. There isn't any. Not a jot. People assumed that what Morris said about G Coy must be true. But it isn't. What it most certainly is, is militarily illogical. It is the best part of a mile from the G Coy position to the saddle. Nobody was further away. G Coy was on the extreme right (and had even pushed forward of the rocky ridge on a right oblique to support Durnford). This is a battle of double envelopment in which the losing side is outflanked and unhinged, first of all, on its right flank. It takes completely perverse logic to move the troops that are the furthest away from any sort of rallying point - which the saddle at least temporarily provided - to being the very heart or the focus of that rally. The 2nd Battalion were the closest to the developing threat and the furthest from safety - see what I mean about perversity? The best way of understaning this is to go and stand on Pope's position for yourself, roll the mental tape in you mind's eye, and then turn around to look at your line of retreat to the saddle. You'll just snicker to yourself and say 'I'm going to die and I'm going to die soon.' Believe me - there is no other conclusion you can arrive at. That then is the evience of the prevailing tactical situation and the ground. What of the source evidence?

Now we need to turn to the source evidence on the large clusters of 24th bodies. This reveals a big cluster of about 70 (not really traceable to a particular company) where the 24th monument now stands; a stand of 68 men (in which Capt Wardell's [OC H Coy] body was identified) behind the officers tents in the 1st/24th camp; about 60 with Younghusband (OC C Coy) on the terrace; 20 odd with Colour Sergeant Wolfe on the rocky ridge; 40 with Anstey in the Manzimyama Valley and about 50 right forward (which can only be 2nd battalion men as the 1st Bn was nowhere near there.) Clusters. That is to say that the existence of indivuduals or small groups are not really covered in the sources. The sources therefore do not preclude the existence of cumulatively large numbers of dead distributed in small knots on almost any part of the field.

But we can do better than that even. Corporal Bassage who was in C Coy 2/24th and returned to camp that night and again later in the year to bury the dead wrote in his pocket book (now in Brecon) that most of the 2nd/24th bodies were found on the battalion's outlying picket position. This we know is just behind the Nygone Donga and corresponds exactly with where one would expect to find G Coy and its attachments had they gone down early rather than late. The reference is very clear. So the existence of a rallying square of 50, and another 100-ish dead overall in the same general area are not incompatible This is in fact exactly what you might expect - some men rallying to Charlie and Fred, those men who on a thinly stretched open order firing line were in a position to do so, while others, pressed by the outflanking move around their right, coupled with a direct frontal assault from the area of the now abandoned 'Durnford's Donga', fell back in small knots wherever they were able to come together, only to be cut down long before they could reach the saddle.

That in a nutshell is how I see it. Additionally I would just offer that the two rightmost stands were by Durnford and the carbineers (and other volunteers) at the foot of Black's Koppie and the one behind the 1st 24th officers tents. I have hypotheised that these two groups might have originally have been together in order to give the large 100-strong square which Zulu sources tell us they encountered in the mouth of the saddle. Wardell is there with 68 in total, only a handful of whom were not 24th men - call it 60. But he started with 75-80, like everybody else, and his colour sergeant is out on the ridge with 20. Sixty + 20 = 80. Is this a fluky coincidence? I would suggest not. I have hypothesized that Wolfe stayed behind as a company rearguard - but of course he may just have been cut off - though I consider this on balance unlikely - why would this happen on a linear company position? If we can accept therefore that the stand behind the officer's tents was made by H Coy - the next available place for any substantial body of 2nd battalion men to have fallen (and they would need to be tactically coherent and well supplied with ammuntion to get back that far) - is on the position of the 24th monument. This would entail the paths of G Coy and H Coy crossing and I would consider this to be a pretty silly notion. So the H Coy 60 under Wardell, another 70 various of the 1st Battalion at the 24th monument, and C Coy under Younghusband on the terrace, are the primary rallying squares in the saddle.

So back to the rhetorical question - what evidence is there for anybody from the 2nd Battalion being back in the saddle? It was never true - it was just that Donald Morris said it was.

Lots of hastily jotted down notes there David - please if I am unclear in any way feel free to fire in follow-up questions. I can't promise I'll get to them in the next 24 hours but certainly during the course of the week and weekend.

Mike"

Source: Victorian War Website.

Guest

Hi all

Mr M.Cooper .The Poor Pulleine was not made to command in a battle, it was not his JOB in the army ...

Durnsford, rushed to the disaster. Salute

Cheers

Pascal

Guest

Hi all

Dave

G Company and Rear Details 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment of Foot – 5 & 171

G coy at Isandhlwana consisted of Pope and Godwin-Austen and 85 ORs

Dyer's composite coy consisted of Dyer, Griffith and 70 ORs

There are eleven 2/24th men whose company cannot be found and were probably with Dyer.

In camp were three 2/24th servants, Bandmaster Bullard, QM Bloomfield and (probably but not necessarily) his QM-Sergt (who was in D coy).

Total: 176.

Cheers

Pascal

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