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 Isandlwana, Last Stands

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90th

90th

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Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 Empty
PostSubject: Isandlwana , last stands .   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptySat Mar 10, 2012 9:12 am

Hi Tasker .
A very large chunk of point 1 , with a smattering of point 2 . Salute
cheers 90th. Very Happy
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptySat Mar 10, 2012 9:36 am

We can't keep dismissing the Zulus take on what took place at Isandlwana because it's been reported in a new paper. The Zulus did not keep accounts, but I'm sure many were spoken to after the war. Just because the accounts weren't given under British interrogation does not mean it didn't happen.

Quote :
Hi Littlehand
The tents werent struck because no-one in the camp expected to be attacked , and when signs of an attack became iminent it was to late to strike the tents .
cheers 90th.

90th then why has everyone been harping on about the tents not being struck as per- standing orders in the event of an attack. Perhaps you should read TMFH, after which you will see that the document proves an attack was imminent . Those in Commarnd just didn't read the signs.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana - Last Stands    Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptySat Mar 10, 2012 11:06 am

Hi Littlehand.
My point exactly ........... '' Those in command didnt read the signs '' and did little to try and see the signs . You had to be ordered to strike the tents , its not something an individual took upon themselves . I've read the missing 5 hrs and not sold on it either , although it was a while back when it first came to light . I dont dismiss anything that I read in Newspapers or books etc .
Hence my stand on the Letter being Adendorff !. What you dont realise is the zulu people have an affinity with their oral history ,
in other words if it was a great ruse that led to the victory at Isandlwana it would be the subject of countless praise songs etc etc .
They wouldnt care what the british thought , especially after the war was finished . From what I can gather or havent heard over the years , in either written or oral history is the praise song / songs of how the zulu won the great battle with the art of masterful
planning or ruses . Hope you follow what I'm attempting to explain . Those from Sth Africa will most certainly understand what I'm attempting to say . Salute
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tasker224

tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptySat Mar 10, 2012 1:50 pm

I couldn't agree more with the points LH has made. Salute
There is no doubt in my mind the attack on the 22nd Jan 1879 and the preceding skirmishes at Mangeni, were a deliberate Zulu assault. They held all the cards, everything was under their control
No one entered Zululand in the 1870s without the Zulu hierarchy knowing about it.
The 3rd column patrols did not find the Zulus, the Zulus had found the column well before anyone from the 3rd column had even seen a Zulu.

I think we need to shelve - just for the moment - the idea of the battle of iSandlwana being a great Zulu trick however, as I think it might be confusing issues.

It was probably simply outstanding infanteering and field craft, the typical, basic, straightforward Zulu tactics developed by Shaka perfectly executed from the Zulu "oral text book", the like of which the Brits had not encountered before. So in a sense, the LC's column AND the camp were taken by surprise.

This would explain the lack of Zulu oral history and music over the battle being a great ruse; but I would be surprised if the Zulu were not proud of their victory at iSandlwana. 90th?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptySat Mar 10, 2012 3:16 pm

90th
Your quite right concerning the oral history. Chief Buthelezi has been consulted on many occasion by Greaves Knight Laband etc as an expert in the field of his people. Never ever has there been mention of that level of deception. Believe me if it had happened they would still be dancing to it today.
African Oral tradition is so unlike european, its held and passed as sacred thing. talk to people like Mtetwa and they will recite every descendant and there history since before time began.

Still cant agree on the Adendorff letter though. Salute

Cheers Mate
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John

John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed Mar 21, 2012 2:27 pm

CAPE NEWS PER S.S. LUSITANIA.
West Coast Times , Issue 3212, 17 July 1879, Page 2

Another paper article that suggests an officer shot himself, although it says Durnford he couldn’t have. Don't see how they came to that conclusion.

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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed Mar 21, 2012 9:41 pm

Thanks DB. When you get to my age, your be repeating yourself. Salute


Thanks DB. When you get to my age, your be repeating yourself. Salute


Last edited by littlehand on Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed Mar 21, 2012 9:59 pm

LH

Its been covered before in one of your own topics Suspect

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Young was not present at Isandlwana and is a lier.




Cheers
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ciscokid



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyFri Mar 23, 2012 4:55 pm

littlehand wrote:
This is nearer to the truth!!. Gives thought to TMFH. And could answer the question as to why the tents weren't struck.

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Hi Little

I read this article about 3 years ago and mentioned it here, I could never find it again since reading it and a few people asked where i had found it. Thanks for sharing.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyFri Mar 23, 2012 4:58 pm

So, first, that is not what Pope's diary says. Secondly, what's the date of the report and where's it from? Thirdly, where's this Zulu account and what does it say? Fourthly, who's written this newspaper report?
This is a third-hand report from an unsubstantiated Zulu account melded with an incorrect interpretation of Pope's diary which, in total contradicts every other British/Zulu/colonial eye-witness account of the battle.
I mean, really, creeping up in the grass, what next?
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24th

24th

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyFri Mar 23, 2012 7:56 pm

Quote :
I mean, really, creeping up in the grass, what next?
let's remember they got 20,000 plus Zulus about 5 miles from the camp. So a crawl in the grass would have been a walk in the park.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptySat Mar 24, 2012 5:51 am

Creeping up in the grass........... whats next.

Smoking it????
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ciscokid



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptySat Mar 24, 2012 4:56 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Creeping up in the grass........... whats next.

Smoking it????


:lol: :lol:
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed Apr 25, 2012 10:45 pm

Here's an extract from Major Dartnell report on his visit to Isandlwana concerning " Younghusband last stand"

" It was later reported that there had been another group of men in an outcrop high up in th mountain"

"Approximately seventy bodies were in the rugged hill, underneath the terrace to the south of Isandhlwana. Among them were captain Younghusbands men and two unidentifiable officers. It appeared that they had hung from cliffs and fought until their ammunition ran out. As evidence of their struggle there were three soldiers together with as many dead Zulu, as white men and Zulu faced each other and fought until they fell. One man of the 24th fell downhill and was there with the handle of an assagai in his back; he was evidently killed while fighting off a frontal attack...In another place we found the skull of a Zulu with a bayonet that had gone right it while his rusted assagai was found in another mans chest. Among the rocks there was an Induna, covered by his shield, together with other Zulu bodies found there. I think that this was the scene of the final resistance and that Consequencely , the Zulu had had less time to take away their dead, as they had done in other parts of the camp. Another Soldier of the 24th was found hanging upside down with his skull spit against the ground, showing that he had either fallen or had been speared from the peak"


"
Quote :
It was later reported that there had been another group of men in an outcrop high up in th mountain"

Hoping those that know the area can help. If Younghusband and his men changed down in to the Zulus. Why were the bodies found by Dartnell found in an outcrop high up in the mountain.

Quote :
One man of the 24th fell downhill and was there with the handle of an assagai in his back; he was evidently killed while fighting off a frontal attack.

Could this mean the Zulu were infact charging up hill, bearing in-mind a lot of Zulu dead were also found in the outcrop high in the mountain.

I wonder who the two unidentifiable officers were. ?
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24th

24th

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed Apr 25, 2012 10:55 pm

First time I have seen this.

It certainly shows the Zulu must have got among Younghusbands men. If they had of charged down there woundn't be 70 bodies plus high up in the mountain. This makes sense when it come to the memorial showing Younghusbands last stand.
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John

John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed Apr 25, 2012 11:29 pm

Looking at Jamies Website. Title Looking back at Younghusbands Cairn, where were they have supposed to charge down.

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Here a photo from the grave section. I cannot see how or where this charge down hill to place. Please dont say from the cliffs above. Still the cliff does make sense regarding Dartnell's report.
"
Quote :
Another Soldier of the 24th was found hanging upside down with his skull spit against the ground, showing that he had either fallen or had been speared from the peak
"
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24th

24th

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyThu Apr 26, 2012 12:03 am

John thanks for the photos. Perhaps springbok could take a few photos of this area. If he has time. But it is starting to look like the gallant charge didn't take place.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyThu Apr 26, 2012 7:10 am

We have two threads running paralel thoughts on Younghusband, Ive replied to this topic but on the thread " Narrative of the Field operations ".

24th
I shall most certainly take some photos of the area.

regards
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyThu Apr 26, 2012 7:47 am

It was not Dartnels report but Wilson Blacks report.


Cheers
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24th

24th

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyThu Apr 26, 2012 8:09 am

It doesn't matter who's report it was, the question still remains. " did the charge down the hill really take place. scratch


PS DB14 can you show this was Blacks report.
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyThu Apr 26, 2012 8:21 am

24th DB14 is correct, it was Blacks report. Men under Dartnell was there. Read it wrong. But like you say the question still remains. It was impossible to charge down from their position.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyTue May 15, 2012 5:18 pm

Liitlehand raised the point that he thinks there were no last stands ( As such) and that there was just mass panic.

This from a government conductor of waggons. Just before his escape. Only post a part which is relevant.

"At one o'clock the union jack in front of the generals tent was pulled down and torn to pieces ; but a general panic had already commenced. and I then retired from the camp in company with a Carineer ( Name not known), and one army staff sergeant.



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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyTue May 15, 2012 5:33 pm

John there were stands as the body's were found in clumps and the Zulu acccounts describe coming
across men standing back to back.

There was panick in the camp by the civilans and the natives but not by the 24th regiment.




Cheers
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyTue May 15, 2012 5:50 pm

Some Zulu accounts that describe the fight after the fugitives left.

This describes the F Coy fighting retreat
A portion of the British force passed over the Nek and took up a Position under the cover of the dongas on the right of the road and from that place kept up such a fire that no Zulu dared show his head over the Nek, from here they were dislodged by the right horn and tried to retire across the road and down the fugitives track,in overwhelming force and pushed among the dongas of the Manzimnyama, where they made their last stand, this body of soldiers fought well and whenever they faced about to retire they fired over their shoulders at us."

One warrior
"They threw down their gusn when their ammuntion was done and comansed with there pistols, then they
formed a line shoulder to shoulder and back to back and fourght with knives."


Another warrior
"When we closed in, we came to a mixed party of mounted and infantry men who had evidently been stopped by the end of our Horn ... they made a desperate resistance, some firing with pistols and others using swords. I repeatedly heard the word "fire" given by someone. But we proved too many for them and killed them all where they stood. When all was over I had a look at these men, and I saw a dead officer with his arm in a sling and with a big moustache, surrounded by carabineers, soldiers and other men that I didn't know."

Another Zulu
"We were quite unable to break their square until we had killed a great many of them by throwing our
assegais at short distances. We eventually overcame them all this way."


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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyTue May 15, 2012 7:00 pm

Meshla Kwa Zulu.

"All the troops had left the camp to come to attack us, but on seeing us retiring on the camp as we did, they also retired on the camp. The soldiers were sent out in small Compaines in various directions, and caused great havoc among the Zulus. The Carineers on entering the camp made a strong stand there, and their firing was heavy, it was a long time before. They were overcome before we finished them. When we did get to them they died in one place all together. They threw down their guns, when their ammuntion was done. And then commenced with their pistols, which they used as long as their ammuntion lasted; and then they formed a line, shoulder to shoulder and back to back, and fought with their knifes.

At this times many of the soldiers had retired from the positions where they had gone to attack us,and the Ukandapemyu and Umbonambi regiments were killing them from the end of the camp. The Carbineers and others were in the rear of the camp, the soldiers in the front part. The Zulu army first entered the front, where the soldiers were. When the soldiers retired on the camp, they did so running, and the Zulus were then intermixed with them, and entered the camp at the same time."

Just a few observations.

Going by this account I can see their was a last stand. That being made by those brave carbineers. Who were fighting hard and when their ammuntion was done, they stood shoulder to shoulder, back to back and fought hand to hand with knifes. How long would they have lasted if they had access to ammuntion.

Those soldiers that made thier way back to the front of the camp did but running not an orderly retreat.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyTue May 15, 2012 7:03 pm

LH

There was an orderly retreat as most of the men got back, if they were running from the line as you suggest it
would be like David Cameron VS Usain Bolt, in other words they would have stood no chance.

Also several people who were present men the "steady" withdrawl and how they "fourght all the way",not ran all
the way.



Cheers
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyTue May 15, 2012 7:25 pm

I think it needs to be established who was where and where it was taking place. Either way it's does appear that most of the killing and fighting was inside the camp, after the survivors had left. And now we know that Soldiers and Zulus were arriving at the camp at the same time. We're the colonial units covering the retreat of the soldiers running back to camp.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyTue May 15, 2012 7:40 pm

Curling last saw the 24th retreating steadily, Higginson saw them from the front of the NNC camp
retreating slowly, A warrior recoreded how they retired on the camp fighting all the way, A warrior saw them
massing together and retreating, one of the 24th survivors recorded how they were firing volleys as they
fell back.

The colonails were covering the retreat from durnfords donga, as to did Pullen


Cheers
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyTue May 15, 2012 7:44 pm

How far were they from the camp when Curling saw them retreating. Had they just started their retreat halfway through..
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyTue May 15, 2012 9:15 pm

Norris-Newman claims to have drawn a sketch from memory of the camp at Isandwana, which shows where all the different Compaines were. Anyone got, seen, or can post a link to this sketch. Would be very helpfull. Salute
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyTue May 15, 2012 9:20 pm

John, i think the line up from left to right was this.

Younghusband, Erksine, Raw, Roberts, Mostyn, Cavaye, The guns, Deagacher, Wardle, Dyer, Pope, then Durnfords
2 troops of NNH and around 80 white volunteers.



Cheers
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyTue May 15, 2012 11:21 pm

Thanks DB. But I was hoping for a look at Newman's sketch. We can get some idea of where the tents were, the waggons, his sketch of course would not show the Compaines in their locations during the battle, because he wasn't there. But it would give us a indication showing just how far the firing lines were sent from the camp. How far apart we're the waggons, we're they parked in one area, could they have been used a part of the fortification. Hope you see where I'm heading with reference to Newman's Sketch.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyTue May 15, 2012 11:24 pm

John. I take you are reading Newman's book. Does it say anywhere in the book what he done with the sketch.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed May 16, 2012 7:43 am

John

i believe David Jackson's book Hill Of the Spinx has drawing of the whole camp.




Cheers
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed May 16, 2012 9:19 am

Jackson has Gardner's and Essex's maps.
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garywilson1

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed May 16, 2012 12:22 pm

"They threw down their gusn when their ammuntion was done and comansed with there pistols, then they
formed a line shoulder to shoulder and back to back and fourght with knives."

How many of the 24th were armed with pistols ? and knives ? not many of the rank and file i think so who are we describing here ?
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed May 16, 2012 1:03 pm

Quote :
How many of the 24th were armed with pistols
Some of the officers i suppose. The ones the carbineers had would not have been govenment issued self issue i suppose.
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garywilson1

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed May 16, 2012 1:19 pm

That is what i thought , so begs the question of how many were actually fighting "shoulder to shoulder and back to back" ?

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed May 16, 2012 2:07 pm

garywilson
You've taken the quotation out of context. Of course it wasn't referring to the 24th. It was referring to one Zulu's observation of the attack on Durnford's last stand of Police and Carbineers.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Wed May 16, 2012 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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garywilson1

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed May 16, 2012 2:23 pm

I have taken the quotation exactly how it was written on this site in an earlier post and asked a question which i considered relevant to it .
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed May 16, 2012 3:34 pm

Gary

The quote was decribing the last stand of the Carbineers and Police, nothing to do with the 24th, the carbineers and
police all had pistols.

The men of the 24th were found dead in rally sqaures, so they must have fourght back to back, also most
of the Zulu accounts describe coming across men in sqaures of back to back.



Cheers

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John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed May 16, 2012 6:55 pm

Quote :
The men of the 24th were found dead in rally sqaures, so they must have fourght back to back, also most
of the Zulu accounts describe coming across men in sqaures of back to back.

We mustn't keep saying the "24th" theses so call rally squares would have had a mixture British, Colonial, and Kaffirs. They all made their way back to the camp.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed May 16, 2012 7:28 pm

In March skin was still on the bodies, so Zulu and Britsh could have been told apart, and the report from then
states that nearly all the Zulu dead were removed.

Most of the Kaffirs would have been killed on the trail.

On the right a large clump of 24th dead was found, there wouldn't be any colonials or kaffirs in that.

Around 100 white bodies, around 70 of them 24th were found and buried on the Saddle on the Saddle

Mansel counted some 50 men of the 24th in a rally square on the moring of the 23rd, so identification would have
been posative, and he counted around 60 in the 1/24th camp area, Black who visted in March confirmed this
and in June identified Captain Wardel Lt Dyer.


Cheers




Cheers
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed May 16, 2012 8:01 pm

Considering a large number of the bodies were stripped I can't see how Black and could tell. There were cooks and civilians in the camp. We also know now that everyone was mixed up in the camp. Zulus took the red coats who in turn could have been killed thus leaving bones and a red coat.
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barry

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PostSubject: Fighting back to back   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed May 16, 2012 8:02 pm

Hi GW1

I see the description of the back to back fighting comes from a Zulu transcription. The generic in Zulu for a sharp edged instrument is the word, a "mes".
This could be used to describe daggers , cutthroats, swords, sabres, pocket knives, kitchen knives, or bayonets. An axe by contrast is an" imbazwe" in Zulu. The Dutch language coincidentally uses the same word, "mes", for a knife.
So Zulu's saying they saw troopers fighting with their "mes" they mean bayonets, back to back, and the implication is that they were sadly fighting their last stand with their bayonets, as they were ,..... ammo less.
Now only the Colonial troopers had pistols as well as their rifles and bayonets. NNC officers had sidearms as well.

regards

barry
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed May 16, 2012 8:35 pm

John

The Cooks and civilians would have tried to escape over the Saddle, they wouldn't have remanied in the camp.




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John

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed May 16, 2012 8:57 pm

So who would you say was in the tents.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyWed May 16, 2012 10:25 pm

Good point. Who were in the tents. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyThu May 17, 2012 7:34 am

John

They would'nt have been any men from the 24th regiment, most likely Native NCO's and civilains.





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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Isandlwana, Last Stands - Page 18 EmptyThu May 17, 2012 9:58 am

barry
1. What makes you think the colonials had bayonets?
2. Your mention of the Zulu word 'mes' for bayonet as well as knife, etc., is interesting but do you not think the interpreter would have clarified the meaning with the Zulu being interviewed?
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