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 Isandlwana Survivor photo's

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sas1

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyTue Oct 11, 2011 10:59 pm

Just a suggestion.

Would it be of interest, if we complied A group of photographs of those that survived the Battle of Isandlwana. We have always said it's good to put a face to a name. May take sometime. But I'm sure we could do it between us.

Littlehands post of Clarke of the NMP gave me he idea.
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barry

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PostSubject: photos of Isandlawana survivors   Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyMon Oct 31, 2011 11:03 am

Hi Sas1,
A grand idea.
I probably will be able to give pics of most NMP survivors and a more chronologically correct one of Tpr Clarke .


Last edited by barry on Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyMon Nov 14, 2011 3:06 pm

Posted on behalf of forum member Barry.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Trooper Charles Montague Sparks

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Col Clarke late cc NP
Photo's by forum member "Barry"

"Herewith an Isandlwana survivor's picture. The first of a number, which I plan on sending.
The dating of the photo is probably in the period 1922-26. The three men in civvies on the left, two of whom are wearing their battle ribbons and medals, are probably Troopers Shannon, Sparks and Doig. This id however is not certain and I would be happy for anyone who can firm up on the id, to make contact.
The uniformed officer on the right is Col Clarke late cc NP, in his retirement, aged in 1924, 64years.
The event and scene is an annual Isandlwana commemoration. In the background of the picture can be seen the slopes of the mountain".


Barry.


Last edited by Admin on Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kwajimu1879

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyMon Nov 14, 2011 3:38 pm

The clean-shaved man, second from the right, is Charles Montague Sparks.

I'll check on the identities of the others when I get home.

kwaJimu1879
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyMon Nov 14, 2011 3:44 pm

"In the book "The Glamour and Tragedy of the Zulu War" by WH Clements, Trooper Charles Montague Sparks tells how he met Kincade sitting on the bank of a river after the Isandlwana Battle with his field boots in hand. He asked Kincade if he did not realise the danger he was in from the Zulus who were in hot pursuit. Kincade's replies were incoherent as if he either did not know or realise his peril or was dazed from the fight for his life in the river, where he too had lost his horse. Kincade then found a horse in the neighbourhood that had managed to swim across and land on the bank minus its rider. Sparks and Kincade then mounted horses and rode as fast as possible to the town of Helpmekaar"
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barry

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PostSubject: Id of isandhlawana survivors   Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyMon Nov 14, 2011 5:06 pm

Thanks kwajimu1879 and admin.
The pic is not marked with names so I had a stab at possibilties, and so far 1/3 correct. Keep going :)

barry
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyMon Nov 14, 2011 7:36 pm

Barry, thanks for the photo's. Col: Clarke. What uniform is he wearing and do you have any information regarding his medals. He has quite a few there.
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kwajimu1879

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyMon Nov 14, 2011 7:48 pm

The chap on the left is Quartermaster Dugald MacPhail, Buffalo Border Guard, he buried at Talana Cemetery, kwaZulu-Natal.

Just got to find the other one's name!

kwaJimu1879
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barry

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PostSubject: Col Clarke   Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyMon Nov 14, 2011 8:00 pm

Hi Littlehand,

The Col's uniform in the picture was that of the 2nd Regmt SAMR, of which unit he was OC after leaving the NP.
The two additional medals not mentioned in Brett Hendey's earlier post elsewhere in the forum are the OBE and the Star of St Stanislas (tie position). These two , as well as a second mention in despatches were awarded by Gen Ironsides, and signed by Winston Churchill whilst seeing action in a covert British Intelligence mission in Russia in 1918/19.
The first mention in despatches was awarded by South Africa's General Botha as a result of the 2nd SAMR's sucessful action in South West Africa in 1914/15.

barry


Last edited by barry on Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyMon Nov 14, 2011 8:35 pm

Cheers Barry. Awarded by Winston Churchill. I wonder if there is anything on this on the the web. ( I have a look ) one more question, what happen to his medals.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyMon Nov 14, 2011 11:44 pm

Hello Barry. Firstly thank you for sharing the photo's. am I right in thinking the photo was taken at Isandlwana. If yes have you got any information on the visit by these survivors.

E.H
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barry

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PostSubject: isandhlwana survivor pictures   Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyTue Nov 15, 2011 3:25 am


Hi Elizabeth and Littlehand,

Yes, the picture was taken at an Isandhlwana memorial day in the early '20's, at Isandhlwana. I have no immediate knowledge as to the circumstances of the attendance of the the survivors there, but I will check to see if there is a mention in the diaries. I will revert on this Elizabeth.
I have framed copies of the two "mention in despatches" and they are listed in the official WO records . The medals are also in the possesion of the family.

Barry
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyTue Nov 15, 2011 10:55 am

Hi Barry .
Thank you very much for sharing your photo's and attempting to identify those involved . Well done .
Kwajimu .
Also thanks for helping to Identify those unknown in the photo . Great job , both of you .
cheers 90th. Idea
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyMon Nov 21, 2011 2:13 pm

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General Sir Horace Lockwood Smith-Dorrien GCB, GCMG, DSO, ADC
Isandlwana Survivor.
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyMon Nov 21, 2011 2:20 pm

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Lt. H. Curling 'N' Battery 5th Bde Royal Artillery, survivor of Isandlwana
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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyMon Nov 21, 2011 2:31 pm

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Samuel Wassall VC
Isandlwana Survivor.
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barry

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PostSubject: Who qualifies as a survivor, a quick poll   Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyMon Nov 21, 2011 3:40 pm

Hi All,

I am busy collecting pictures of survivors of the battles., but am not sure who to post. Let me know your opinion/s ;

1) firstly, do you want to see survivors of both RD and Isandlwana ?
2) Is a survivor anyone who came through those theatres of war, on those battlefields, on those day/s, or, only
those who manned the parapets at RD and also those who deserted, fleeing the Isandlwana and surrounding
battleground in terror ?.

The second question really focuses on Chelmsford, Dartnell and their column out probing for the enemy.

barry



Last edited by barry on Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyMon Nov 21, 2011 8:19 pm

Hi Barry.
I think it should be those that were actually on the Battle field at Isandlwana but managed to escape.
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Brett Hendey

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyTue Nov 22, 2011 5:22 am

Barry

I think that all your pictures are worth posting under separate headings, e.g. RD, Dartnell patrol etc.

Your posts on this forum are much appreciated by me and I look forward to them.

Regards
Brett
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyTue Nov 22, 2011 7:57 am

Barry
Macphail was at a gathering at isandlwana in the 30s. Looking at the photos taken then he seems to be wearing the same suit and waistcoat with fob watch. Medals are mounted behing the collar though not in front.
He doesnt seem to have aged in between so possibly your photo could be from the that era. The phot I refer to is in Zulu Rising opposite page 510.

Regards
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barry

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PostSubject: Dating of Macphail's survivor photo   Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyTue Nov 22, 2011 10:55 am


Hi springbok69,

Thanks for attempting to put a date on the pic. Elazabeth Hogan has also asked this question, so following up I did some checking on all the Col's diary entries from 1922 through to 1928, when the diaries ended, but cannot find any entries about Isandhlawana commemorations in that period .
Indeed his activities on those anniveraries were such that he could not be there even if there were celebrations. Then it occurred to me that 1929 was the 50 year anniversary of the battle, and judging by the Col's ageing, he does appear to be 69 years of age in that pic.
So your guess at 1930, is very close. So much for the powers of deduction

thanks

barry
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyTue Nov 22, 2011 11:32 am

Hi Barry.
I agree with Brett , I'd like you to post all of what you can . I've started to collect photos also .
cheers 90th. Idea
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyTue Nov 22, 2011 11:37 am

90th
Should I post a photo of the Aussie cricket team? :lol!:

Regards
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyTue Nov 22, 2011 11:48 am

I was just glancing through "Rope of Sand" looking for other info when I saw a photo of John Dunn in 1882, looks a lot like the man standing next to Macphail, a hang of a lot. Just after page 368, photo 51.

Regards
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barry

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PostSubject: John Dunn   Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyTue Nov 22, 2011 2:40 pm


Hi Zelda,
Please could you look at that picture of the 4 Isandhlwana survivors and tell us if John Dunn is amongst them.

Thanks and regards

barry
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyWed Nov 23, 2011 2:26 pm

Ive looked at a few more shots of Dunn, its close.

Regards
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyWed Nov 23, 2011 3:07 pm

Sorry folks, senile moment, John Dunn died in 1895.

Regards
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyThu Nov 24, 2011 4:23 am

Hi Springbok .
In reply to your question directed to me which you posted 22 / 11 / 11 . :lol!: :lol!: :lol!: . I will say Winners are Grinners and losers can please themselves !. :lol: :lol: . I'm glad you have a thick skin !. You do , dont you ???. :) :)
cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyThu Nov 24, 2011 6:10 am

90th
So bloody thick its unsafe. :lol!:
Should have been a thitd match.

Regards
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyThu Nov 24, 2011 7:37 am

Springbok.
Agreed Idea .
cheers 90th.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyFri Jul 22, 2016 2:20 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyFri Jul 22, 2016 2:48 pm

Nice one ctsg, great image of the old Q.M.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyFri Jun 19, 2020 8:41 am

Barry
Can I ask where did you find the photo of the foursome? Is it in the Campbell collections?? And does it have an accession number?
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barry

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PostSubject: Survivoir photo   Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyFri Jun 19, 2020 11:03 am

Hi Julian,
Nice to hear from you.
In repjy;
That picture of the four comes from an original print sourced from the "Clarke Papers" in my possession. I have no knowledge of copies anywhere else. I will gladly email you a copy if so desired.

regards

barry
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyFri Jun 19, 2020 1:35 pm

Thanks Barry, good to hear from you too. And thanks for the offer to send the photo. No need to do so but just one or two more questions...Your reply above can be read in two ways. Is it the original print or is it the Clarke Papers that are in your possession? Or is it both?
If the Clarke Papers are not in your possession, where are they?
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barry

barry

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PostSubject: Photo of the four   Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyFri Jun 19, 2020 7:43 pm

Hi Julian,
In reply;
The image posted by me was copied from a black and white photo print which is part of the "Clarke Papers"., ie the negative is not there, but would be found with the photographer. The Clarke papers are held by the Clarke family. They are not in the public domain. However there are other aspects of Clarke's work which are, ie
a) in the Nongai, The Natal Police Magazine. Articles on 1) a serialised history of the Natal Mounted Police; 2)The Royal visit by the ex Empress of the French.
b) A History of the Natal Mounted Police; Holt, 1906 ( this book was based on Clarke's dairies)
c) Killiie Campbell Museum ; My Career in South Africa by Col Clarke ( this is a very much abridged version of the diaries )
d) A Short History of the Natal Mounted Police by Inspector Clarke, 1893. ( this small booklet is very rare and only one other copy exists, that I know about.

Kindest regards,

barry

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptySat Jun 20, 2020 7:48 am

Barry
Many thanks for your clear and full explanation. I'm glad the Papers are in safe hands. Roy Dutton must have sourced the photo from elsewhere if not from you.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptySun Jun 21, 2020 3:47 pm

The man pictured second from left is definitely Trpr. Thomas Henry Cunningham, Newcastle Mounted Rifles who was on Chelmsford's Reconnaissance on the Mangeni. A comparison with a family photo shows it was him.
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barry

barry

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PostSubject: Source, survivor photo   Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 7:33 am

Hi Julian,
Dutton did not source a copy of the pic from me. I did however post it on the AZW forum some years ago. In doing so I would have trusted that the rules applying to use of it for educational purposes only, would apply.

regards

barry
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 3:56 pm

That would be so.
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gardner1879

gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyThu Apr 01, 2021 4:30 pm

Dugald Mcphail

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Kate
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyThu Apr 01, 2021 5:08 pm

Hi
Can I ask what does the text in the caption underneath say?
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyThu Apr 01, 2021 5:19 pm

And where on earth did you unearth this sketch?
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gardner1879

gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyThu Apr 01, 2021 5:26 pm

Difficult to read but I think it says:-
Dugald Mcphail born 26 04 1840 (Invarary Scotland)
Died 4 -5-41 Dundee Natal. One of 17 who survived the battle of Isandlwana 22-01-1879.
Great Grandfather of Mariella(?) who started Penny ....(?)
Kate.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]encouragement inspirational poems
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gardner1879

gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyThu Apr 01, 2021 6:19 pm

Found it here Julian

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Not much on the AZW but it does state who one of the wagons used in the perimeter defences at RD belonged to.

Kate Very Happy
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyThu Apr 01, 2021 7:07 pm

The Penny, is Pennyfarthing a Guest House near Helpmakaar
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivor Photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyFri Apr 02, 2021 2:23 am

Hi Frank
If I remember correctly the owner (?) of the Pennyfarthing Guest house passed away in the last 2 or 3 years ? , so I assume it's no longer open for business ?
90th Salute
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyFri Apr 02, 2021 5:45 am

Foy Vermaak was the owner Gary, but the family is still running it.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyFri Apr 02, 2021 5:53 am

Should have added that Foy's wife was descended from Dugal Mcphail, Foy himself was a long standing battlefield guide
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana Survivor photo's    Isandlwana Survivor photo's  EmptyFri Apr 02, 2021 10:45 am

Presumably at 'Vermaaks' on the old maps?
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