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Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
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 position of Captain Younghusbands body

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Frank Allewell
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: position of Captain Younghusbands body   position of Captain Younghusbands body EmptySat Oct 22, 2011 11:41 am

Can some please post a definite position of the body of Younghusband.

If his body was near the bottom of the mountain then he could have lead the charge.

If it was only half way down he could have lead the charge and been killed early on or shot down whilst leading it.

If it was found near the top surrounded by his men then we would know it wasn't him that led a Bayonet charge into the Zulu ranks.

Just some ideas



Cheers DB14
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: position of Captain Younghusbands body   position of Captain Younghusbands body EmptySat Oct 22, 2011 12:36 pm

26th June 1879
Lt Col Black records: ..About 60 bodies lay ON the rugged slope, under the southern precipice of isandlwana, among them those of Captain Younghusband, and two other officers, unrecognisable; it looked as though these had held the crags, and fought together as long as ammunition lasted.

Interesting reading and probably wide open to interpretation. On the rugged slope, and, under the southern precipice, surely that points to the area where the cairn is, not at the foot of the scree slope.
Does this affect the tradition of Younghusband leading a charge down the mountain?

have fun

Regards
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90th

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PostSubject: Position Of Capt Younghusbands body .   position of Captain Younghusbands body EmptySat Oct 22, 2011 12:46 pm

Hi Springbok .
You beat me to it , I had just answered another question and was coming back to this one !. Very Creditable Lt - Col Black
so to me there is no doubt thats where Reginald was found .
cheers 90th. Idea
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: position of Captain Younghusbands body   position of Captain Younghusbands body EmptySat Oct 22, 2011 3:22 pm

So we have an eye witness account that places Younghusbands body "below the precipic", thats the place where the cairn stands today.
There is also a drawing entitled 'Outline Sketch of Isandlwana, said to be an exact representation of the place'. That drawing indicates the position of 'Where 50 of the 24th fell on the steep slope of the mountain'.

The drawing is in Fanny Colensos Book, and is pretty damn accurate in all other aspects.

So where did the story of Younghusbands charge originate, its pretty obvious that its not provable. At least there may have been a charge but not by him.

Are we back to Make it up Morris again? The first reference on the tall man I can find is by him. All the elements are there, the shaking hands, the wagon defence with three men etc. This said in the same breath that credits Pope and Godwin-Austen with being the last Imperial soldiers alive. However even he does not mention the final charge.

Meshla (Mehlo) kwa Zulu talks of aTall man that came out of a wagon and fired shots in every direction........."I think this man was an officer; he had gaitors on, but I did not see his coat. He was killed immediatly under isandlwana hill.

The first reference to a charge down the hill is chronicled by Betram Mitford talking to an un named Zulu.

Some where these two events seem to have been combined to produce the myth of Clark Kent Younghusband.

Doesnt fit with the discovery position of his body though.




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impi

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PostSubject: Re: position of Captain Younghusbands body   position of Captain Younghusbands body EmptySat Oct 22, 2011 6:18 pm

Was there not a Zulu Account, relating to "Pope and Godwin-Austen" I'm sure theses were the two, who the Zulus said were using revolvers, they said they had glass in their eyes, which was the glasses they were wearing. something along those lines.
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Rockape

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PostSubject: Re: position of Captain Younghusbands body   position of Captain Younghusbands body EmptySat Oct 22, 2011 6:23 pm

I think we are forgetting that the bodies were not buried where they fell, they were rather unceremoniusly piled together in groups of 5 or more where they were then buried, however they did try to group them as they found them.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: position of Captain Younghusbands body   position of Captain Younghusbands body EmptySat Oct 22, 2011 7:03 pm

Hi Rockape,

The report is how the bodies where found not where they where buried.
I just read it in Mike Snooks book.


Cheers DB14
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: position of Captain Younghusbands body   position of Captain Younghusbands body EmptySun Oct 23, 2011 5:36 am

DB 14 is correct, Black refers to the position the bodies were found.
Further point with that issue is, if you were toting a bag / bags full of bones around a prety steep cliff face, going is rough, clambering oveer rocks etc. Would you collect and bury then where they are or, collect and carry them uphill or collect and bury them downhill.

If you examine the photo I published you will see that there is a cairn at the top of the 'mountain skirt' ( there is one other very close as well) but there are no cairns at the bottom of the slope or even close. If you are moving 50/60 sets of bones around wouldnt you pile them in the nearest conveinient place?

Rockage, youve done the climb, what would be your opinion?

Impi, yes there was a statement that talked of two officers wearing glass in there eyes ( monocles ) Pope and Godwen Austen were the only two officers to do so. Yet again the positioning of this so called report is pretty dubious. That would have put them a hell of a long way from the balance of there company. ( we know exactly where the stand was made, Bassage identified that). But Morris is again the main sourse that places them there.

Possible the the 'induna' with the flashing blade could have been George Hodson?

Im convinced that some where in this convoluted world of ours that there is a diary/papers/statement, long forgotten that will start to unravel these mysteries. ( ala Curling, Bassage ) Untill then though, this forum is it.

Regards
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Younghusband

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PostSubject: Re: position of Captain Younghusbands body   position of Captain Younghusbands body EmptySun Oct 23, 2011 2:08 pm

Good point

]If you examine the photo I published you will see that there is a cairn at the top of the 'mountain skirt' ( there is one other very close as well) but there are no cairns at the bottom of the slope or even close. If you are moving 50/60 sets of bones around wouldnt you pile them in the nearest conveinient place

There are several cairns midway up the hill near Younghusbands Cairn - this suggests that there was significant fighting along the skirt, it may have been awkward to build a cairn up the slope and easier to carry any bodies down - the lack of cairns at the foot of the slope possibly suggests that the fighting and killing took place on the skirt itself - does this put into question how many may have 'charged down the hill' or if many did they didnt get far!
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: position of Captain Younghusbands body   position of Captain Younghusbands body EmptyFri Apr 20, 2012 4:27 pm

From Snook

People, I think, tend to imagine the charge as being from the cairn down to the saddle, but my interpreation is that it must have been from the base of the cliff-face downhill towards the cairn - in line with the notion of C Coy having been driven back to that refuge of last resort, from the general area of the cairn, as its ammuntion dwindled away to nothing.

It is in the nature of the ground, and the way soldiers think, that everybody else would have tried to rally to C Coy, as it was occupying the most defensible bastion. The other rallying points in the saddle, such as they were, would have been in real trouble by now - remember that the soldiers who died there had been under pressure for some considerable time as they were being driven in from the front - this is the point at which the full weight of the impi is really coming into play. There would have been many thousands of Zulus crowded into that small space between the sphinx and the koppie - and no real question of any of the rallying squares getting any further - by now hemmed in, surrounded at close quarters and fighting only to delay the inevitable for a few minutes more.

The reconciliation of time and space - that is to say the correct sequencing and juxtaposition, one to another, of the incidents recorded in the sources is always open to debate, but that's how I saw it happening in my mind as I ran and re-ran the mental action replay over the long musing hours I spent there.

There is of course no guarantee that the officer was Younghusband - but if his company was substantially intact and had withdrawn in good order - as the sources suggest, there is a better than even chance that he would still have been alive and of course if he was indeed alive, then it was assuredly him who led the charge. His body was found in the right place for this to be so - again I am unable to quote chapter and verse on this - the source evidence is a long way from constituting conclusive evidence - it is so fragmentary that we are often reliant on single source remarks - and I think this is a good example. Again, it might well have been Black - but try others of the same ilk - Historical Records of the 24th is another good contender - as is the Forbes report - and possibly even the Narrative.

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24th

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PostSubject: Re: position of Captain Younghusbands body   position of Captain Younghusbands body EmptyFri Apr 20, 2012 8:27 pm

Quote :
People, I think, tend to imagine the charge as being from the cairn down to the saddle.

I often wondered why the cairn was up on the ridge. When it should have down on the saddle.

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