24th foot 2nd Warwickshire regiment's Colours from Isandlwana

Hi all

There is a picture that I found online, of what is supposed to be the colours of the 24th foot (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, that were recovered from the river some days after the battle of Isandlwana. They are depicted with the silver wreath of immortals that Queen Victoria placed on them, but there is something that just doesn't seem right. If these are the colours that were at Isandlwana, then what are WW1 battle honours doing on them?

I would put the picture on here, however, I am not sure how to do it (sorry chaps).

Regards

Martin.

Hi Mr Cooper

The Isandlwana Queens Colour was carried till 1936.

Cheers
DB14

Because the same colours were carried during WW1

Must have posted the sometime .

Hi DB14 and 24th

Thanks for clearing that, I knew that someone on here would know the answer.

Regards

Martin.

can you copy and paste a link to the picture?

Hi tasker

Not very well up with computers (it's an age thing I think), so I will give you the site I found it on.

bbmexplorer.com/brecon-----spiritual home of the 24th regiment of foot

Hope this helps.

Martin.

Hi all

I have just been checking on the site again to see if I had given tasker the right info, and I have noticed another strange thing about this colour.

I thought that it was the colour of the 1st 24th that had been recovered from the river, and that the colour of the 2nd 24th had been lost during the battle at Isandlwana, however, the colour shown in the picture has the scroll with the words II BATT on it, should it not read I BATT if this is the one recovered from the river?

Odd to say the least, but no doubt someone on here will know the answer.

Regards

Martin.

Martin

If you can figure out how to post the picture, it might help to identify the colour.

Bill

Hi Bill

I have read the 'posting images' in FAQ, but I am afraid it's all gobbledegook to me, I only know the basics about computers and am totally bamboozled by 'computer speak'. If you pm me and give me an email address that I can send the picture to, I will send it to you, and if you know how to post images then maybe you will be so kind as to put it on here. Other than that the site I found the picture on is above in the message I gave to tasker, which is

bbmexplorer.com/brecon-----spiritual home of the 24th regiment of foot


Sorry Bill, but I only have a little knowledge about these newfangled gadgets called computers, but I hope that the above information is of some use.

Regards

Martin.

Martin,

here you go.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Hope this helps, Jeff

Hi Jeff

Many thanks mate, brilliant, yes, that's the one.

Good on you Jeff, I would have been still trying to do it this time next year. :lol!:

Regards

Martin.

The 1st Battalion's Queen's Colour didn't have a scroll on it in 1879, just the XXIV and no battle honours.

kwaJimu1879

Hi

What part of the Colour is the "golden embroided regimental badge"

Cheers
DB14

This seems to get odder and odder

If there was no 1st Battalion scroll on the colour in 1879, then the scroll with II BATT must have been added later and the colour handed over to the 2nd Battalion, and also the WW1 battle honours added to the colour after WW1, and where is the wreath of roses, thistles and shamrocks that is supposed to surround the XXIV, and should it not have the word REGt below the XXIV

Talk about enigma variations, Elgar would be happy wouldn't he :lol!:

DB14

I think that it might have been the regimental colour that had the regimental badge on it, this is the Queen's colour, but I might be wrong.

Regards

Martin.

Martin,

The 2nd Battalion's Queen's Colour had a scroll on it to designate it as the 2nd Battalion, when the battalion was re-formed in 1858.

I think you might be confusing the Queen's Colour & the Regimental Colour?

I'm currently away from home, as soon as I'm back I'll post it chapter & verse for you.

kwaJimu1879

Hi Jimu

If the colour in the picture is the one that was rescued from the river some days after the battle, then that would be the 1st Battalion's colour, and therefor should have no scroll on it, yet the colour shown in the picture is shown with a scroll with II BATT on it, so I am assuming that if it is the colour rescued from the river, then the scroll with II BATT must have been attached later and the colour passed on to the 2nd Battalion, otherwise if it is the colour of the 1st Battalion, then it shouldn't have the scroll on it. I also thought that the XXIV had the word REGt under it, and that the whole thing was surrounded by a wreath of Roses, Thistles and Shamrocks. DB14 asked about the golden embroidered regimental badge, and I was under the impression that it would be the regimental colour that had the regimental badge on it, but I wouldn't be sure of this.

I look forward to reading the chapter and verse, it will be a good read, thanks in advance Jimu, much appreciated.

Regards

Martin.

I have seen a photo of the Isandlwana colour and it was much more faded then the one in the photo.........

But this one looks like it has the wreath that the queen placed on it still

Hi Martin,

yep two different colours. The one in the picture is not the Isandlwana 1st Batt Queens colours. It appears to be mislabeled on the site you found. I am away as well but I am sure kwajim will get it on track. I'll look through some pictures when I get home and get the one your looking for.
Regards, Jeff

The colour i saw looked red and the middle part of it was almost blank, all writting having rotted.


Justed looked at my dads Colour and it has a regimental badge on it. He says he doesn't think they would carry
one on the Queens Colour.





Cheers
DB14

There is a black & white photo on the forum somewhere of the original colours I believed taken in 1933.

Well done Jeff, you have come to the rescue again (are you in the R.N.L.I.) :lol!:

So it looks like there are two different colours, and the one on the site I found has been mislabeled, I thought there must be an explanation, cheers mate.

Regards

Martin

Hi DB14

Your dad might be right about that, I think that the colour carrying the regimental badge would be the regimental colour and not the Queens colour.

Regards

Martin.

Hi Chard

I have found a black and white picture in the book 'uniforms and weapons of the zulu war', if you have the book, it's on page 35.
It shows both the regimental colour and the recovered Queen's colour, and I can make out the regimental colour a lot better than the Queen's colour. The Queen's colour appears to be very pale, this could well be through being in the water, or it might be how the light is falling on it in the photo. I can just about make out the form of the union flag, and there appear to be some sort of design in the centre, I wonder if this could be the wreath of Roses, Thistles and Shamrocks?

Regards

Martin.

Hi DB14

It does look like your dad and I were right about the regimental colour having the badge. In the photo I described above in my post to Chard, I can make out the regimental colour a lot better than the Queen's colour, and I can see the small union flag in the canton, and can make out what appears to be the regimental badge (glengarry type), in the centre, there also appears to be the wreath of Roses, Thistles and Shamrocks around the badge, below the badge is the sphinx, and at each side are the battle honours.

Hope this helps

Regards

Martin.

1st Battalion's Queen's Colour: Presented 1866; Laid-up 1933. Measured 4'00" by 3'6".
The Colour was the Union [Flag] in the centre the Roman numerals XXIV ensigned with a Crown.

1st Battalion's Regimental Colour: Green (as per the facings).
In the centre on a patch the Roman numerals XXIV surrounded with a circle inscribed 2nd WARWICKSHIRE encircled with a Union wreath of Roses, Thistles & Shamrocks. Ensigned with a Crown. Below the central device the badge of the Sphinx superscribed EGYPT with a Laurel Wreath. In the first corner the Union [flag]. The distinctions in column on each side of the centre device being: CAPE OF GOOD HOPE; TALAVERA; FUENTES D'NOR; SALAMANCA; VITTORIA; PYRENEES; NIVELLE; ORTHES; PENSINSULA; PUNJAUB & CHILLIANWALLAH.



2nd Battalion's Queen's Colour; Presented 1859; Lost on the Field of Isandlwana 22nd January 1879. Measured 4'00" by 3'6".
The Colour was the Union [Flag] in the centre the Roman numerals XXIV. Ensigned with a Crown. Below the numerals on a scroll II BATTN.

2nd Battalion's Regimental Colour: Green (as per the facings).
In the centre on a patch the Roman numerals XXIV surrounded with a circle inscribed 2nd WARWICKSHIRE encircled with a Union wreath of Roses, Thistles & Shamrocks. Ensigned with a Crown. At the bow a scroll inscribed II BATTN. Below the centre the badge of the Sphinx superscribed EGYPT with a Laurel Wreath. In the first corner the Union [flag]. The distinctions in column on each side of the centre device being: CAPE OF GOOD HOPE; TALAVERA; FUENTES D'NOR; SALAMANCA; VITTORIA; PYRENEES; NIVELLE; ORTHES; PENSINSULA; PUNJAUB; CHILLIANWALLAH & GOOJERAT.

I'll try and dig out some examples over the next few days and post them.

kwaJimu1879

Didn't one of the Anglo Zulu War re-enactment groups have a replica of the regimental colour made. Completed by a company on Hong Kong I'm sure it was posted not so long ago on the forum.

Hi 24th .
I think you may be correct , I think there is a replica of the Queen's Colour for one of the Regt's currently
or just finished on ebay . I'll have a look later and post it if I come across it .
cheers 90th.

Back on the subject of fakes and forgery, on display at the Royal Welsh Museum at Brecon is a 19th Century fake of the 2nd Battalion's Regimental Colour that was lost at Isandlwana.

For a photograph of 1st Battalion's Queen's Colour see [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] it is the photograph on the left above the Zulu Memorial at Isandlwana.

kwaJimu1879

Just out of Interest.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Original Union flag which flew at Rorke’s Drift throughout the battle
Source: Gentleman's Military Interest Club
Originally posted by 24th: On Sat 27 Aug 2011 - 0:10

Admin,
The actual source for that flag should be The Royal Welsh Museum, Brecon.
kwaJimu1879

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
The Colour Party of the 1st/24th Foot prior to presenting the Queen's Colour recovered from the Tugela River after the Battle of Isandlwana to HM Queen Victoria. The Queen's Colour is on the left. The soldiers on the far right and fourth from the right fought at Rorke's Drift.
The most memorable episode of this stage of the battle concerns Lieutenants Melville and Coghill. Melville was the adjutant of the 1st Battalion, the 24th Foot. He is thought to have collected the Queen’s Colour from the guard tent towards the end of the battle and ridden out of camp heading for the Tugela River. Melville arrived at the river, in flood from the rains, with and plunged in. Half way across Melville came off his horse, still clutching the cased colour. Coghill, also of the 24th Foot, crossed the river soon after and went to Melville’s assistance. The Zulus were by this time lining the bank and opened a heavy fire on the two officers. Coghill’s horse was killed and the colour swept away. Both officers struggled to the Natal bank where it seems likely that Natal natives killed them.
Melville and Coghill probably died at around 3.30pm. At 2.29pm there was a total eclipsed of the sun briefly plunging the terrible battle into an eerie darkness.

Source; Warfare forum

Jimbo. He did say, Source: Gentleman's Military Interest Club Originally posted by 24th: On Sat 27 Aug 2011 - 0:10
If that's where 24th obtained if from, then 24th is correct in putting the source where he got it from. It would be near impossible and time consuming if we had to look for the original source.

Hi all

The flag (illustrated), noted as the one that flew over Rorke's Drift, was brought back from Zululand by 25B/1428 Pte Evan Jones, B Coy 2/24th (NB He was only posted the the 2/24th on 26/1/1879 - three days after the battle of RD). How did he get the flag ? We don't know. However, later in his service he was given 28 days detention for stealing ! On leaving the army he settled in Welshpool and the flag was passed to a Jack Higgins of the Old School House also in Welshpool. It remained with his family until 1978 when it was presented to the Brecon Museum.

Currently it is protected by a plastic sheet, but I am hoping to have it under glass very soon.

As an aside, Pte Jones' great great grandaughter, Miss Ann Jones, was Miss Wales in 1979 on the 100th anniversary of the battle.

The Gentleman's Military Club ? I suspect they just held/hold a photograph of the flag.

Bill

Hi littlehand

Thanks for putting the picture of the colour party up. This is the picture in the book 'uniforms and weapons of the zulu war' I was explaining about in my earlier post, and somehow the Queen's colour in the picture you have put up is a lot clearer than the picture in the book I have.

Maybe it's the methods used in the printing of the pictures.

Regards

Martin.

Hi kwajimu

Many thanks for the post, a good read, and it made things a lot clearer.

Much appreciated

Regards

Martin.

Hi Bill

I replied to your post explaining that I wasn't sure how to put the picture of the flag on here, and giving you the address of the site I found it on, but Jeff (dundeeboer), came to the rescue and put the image of the flag up, and it appears that they have got the flag mislabled on their site.

Very interesting about the flag flown at RD (hope this is the right one) :lol!:

Regards

Martin.

Littlehand,
When I get back home tonight I'll post a far better photograph of Tongue & the Colour party @ Osborne.
Why can't people get MELVILL's name right?
As Bill, the Curator of the Royal Welsh Museum, confirms the Rorke's Drift Union Flag is in the Collection at Brecon, so it should really be attributed to the Museum, rather than elsewhere.
kwaJimu1879

Quote :

Why can't people get MELVILL's name right?

Jim. Doe's it matter. We all know who their on about.

What's the correct spelling for "Isandula"

Littlehand,
Of course it matters!
I believe it is iSandlwana, as that is what the learned ones in this game are touting it as.
kwaJimu1879

Look on the Victorian war forum. And look at John Young's user name. He is one of the learned ones. My point being we all know what it means.

Hi Martin,

Just checking back in. Looks like you have some good information. I’ll just add a little. I think I have the answer to the confusion you’re having with the XXIV Regt and roses & thistles surrounding it. If you go back a little further to mid 18th century the Kings Color (later to be Queens color with Victoria) was the union jack with XXIV Regt.in the center and surrounding that was a wreath of roses and thistles. It was also much larger, 6x6. I am not sure if the Regt. and wreath were changed to crown and XXIV with Victoria in 1837 or earlier but in 1857 the size was reduced to the basic measurements Kwajimu gave you above and the spearhead ornament was replaced with the crown and lion. In 1859 Victoria ordered that Red and gold fringe be added.

This is a copy print from the NAM showing the Queens and Regimental Colors.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


So adding to the confusion is of course de Neuvilles painting of Melvill and Coghill saving the Queens color where he has painted Melvill actually holding the regimental color.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Mevill of course saved the Queens color of the 1st Battalion from the field and it was lost, then recovered from the Buffalo River. The regimental color was left at Helpmakaar.

The Queens color for the 2nd Battalion was lost from the field of Isandlwana and all that was recovered was the color poll not far from Isandlwana some time later. The replacement color was given in 1882 and the staff given to Queen Victoria and kept at Windsor Castle until 1923 then returned to the regiment.

On July 28th 1880 the Queens color of the 1st Battalion was taken to Queen Victoria at Osborne where she placed the Wreath of immortelles on the color poll and ordered that sliver replicas always be carried on both the 1st and 2nd battalions Queens color to commemorate the gallantry on Melville and Coghill and the heroic defense of Rorkes Drift. The 1st Battalion Queens color and Regimental color were Carried until march 28th 1933 when new colors were presented by the Governer in Hong Kong on behalf of King George V. The Laying up ceremony was at Brecon Cathedral on Easter Sunday, April 1, 1934. I have the program from that. Here are the first two pages I thought you might like.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Hats off and a moment to remember brave men through the ages. Join me if you will.

Hope this is of interest.

Regards, Jeff

Hi Jeff

Many thanks for the information and the pictures, brilliant, very good of you my friend and much appreciated.

Yes, I have been checking up on the colours, and it looks like the XXIV REGt surrounded by Roses and Thistles was changed at some point, but like you, I can't be sure when. The regimental colour appears to still have the Roses and Thistles around the garter emblem, which looks a little like the glengarry badge on the colour party photo at Osborne. Talking of the glengarry, Queen Victoria liked it and said that all her soldiers should wear it, and so all regiments had the glengarry, not just scottish regiments.

Yes, that's the problem with some of the Victorian artists, they painted romantic images of how they wanted to portray the subject in question, and they get some of the details wrong (artistic licence), which then gets things confused with actual events, and leads the public into believing that what they see in a painting is what actually happened, just like the 1964 film zulu, which got a lot of things wrong and created the myth that the 24th was a Welsh regiment called the SWB.

Jeff, I thought that a lion and crown were found as well as the pole, but I may be wrong, I will have to get reading the book again to check up on that.

You have been of great help with this, and I thank you most sincerely, well done mate, and many, many thanks.

And yes, I will take off my hat and join you in remembering these very brave men through the ages.

Here is to their memory, may their souls rest in peace.

Best regards mate

And once again, many thanks.

Martin.

I was unaware The Good Lord Chelmsford was court marshalled.

CTSG. Me thinks you have posted in wrong discussion.

Hi Ctsg .
This may be the wrong thread , but I didnt think he was court - Martialled . I think there was talk of the possibility
of one but as far as I'm aware it didnt happen . He was censured in as much he didnt command a force in the field ever again . I think luckily for him he was a great favourite of Queen Victoria which no doubt saved his bacon to a certain extent .
cheers 90th .

A bit odd, him saying this,when he made the comments he did regarding the deaths of Melville & Coghill.

Hi all

Normal, Wolseley was a modern general and it would not have suffered the failure of Chelmsford.

Also I do not think the Zulu knew what What was a standard, if they had found, they would have left behind to rot...




Pascal