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 Bayonet against Assegai

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+6
90th
Neil Aspinshaw
tasker224
24th
Drummer Boy 14
littlehand
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 4:34 pm

Neil one for you. Do you agree with this Sgt Major!!

Bruce Herald, Volume XII, Issue 1108, 27 May 1879, Page 3
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Last edited by littlehand on Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 4:42 pm

The Zulus used their shields to deflect or absorb the Bayonet, an example of this is Umohti.


Cheers
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 5:05 pm

DB. I think LH is referring to the heating of the rifle and the ability to attached the bayonet , after 70 rounds. Look at what the Sgt Major is saying. No doubt he's experienced in the use of the MH.

Will be interesting of Neil concurs with this Sgt Major.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 5:14 pm

24th

Point i was trying to make is, even if the gun was very hot there are still many accounts of men using the bayonet
after the ammuntion ran out.


Cheers
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 6:05 pm

I remember reading, don't remember where, that the Zulus had more fear and respect for the bayonet than the bullet; they were more hesitant in front of the bayonet.
DB, I agree, there is much written about the men using bayonets in the hand to hand fighting.
I am sure that the men and NCOs of the 24th would have known the idiosyncracies of the MH in almost as much depth as Neil A.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 6:43 pm

Quote :
24th
Point i was trying to make is, even if the gun was very hot there are still many accounts of men using the bayonet
after the ammuntion ran out.
Cheers

But thats not why the artical was posted. It was posted to determine wether or not the Sgt Major is correct. Not to determine if they used Bayonets or not at Isandlwana.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 7:03 pm

Tasker

I'm sure that was in Hitch's account of RD.


Cheers
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Neil Aspinshaw

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 7:10 pm

LH
The men of B Company were very adept with the bayonet, and there is no reason why the older men of the 1st battalion were even more proficient with it. Hook certainly chose to comment about it's capability,

Barrel heat was countered with an un-official hide guard, Lloyds paintings illustrates this, however, few contemporary reports apart from this one, regarding heat actually effecting the weapon in close combat , I'm not sure if a nameless "sergeant Major", who was obviously not present, can be regarded as a primary scource.

What we do know is the Enfield Martini, did have an integral guard which clipped onto the barrel, it was not adopted,

http://www.martinihenry.org/index.php?route=product/product&path=61_59&product_id=78





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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 7:14 pm

Thanks Neil. But is he correct in that it would have been quite a task, fixing the bayonet after firing 70 shots with regards to burns.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 7:31 pm

LH

They'd have fixed bayonets before they began to fall back off the firing line, at that time they wouldn't have fired 70 rounds.



Cheers
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 8:12 pm

DB, the Times article LH posted is based on a report by "a sgt major" and does refer to apparent difficaulty fixing bayonets after having fired 70 rounds.
I am sure you are right that bayonets would have been fixed sooner, but i share NA's apparent scepticism of an article not based on a named 1ry source.
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Neil Aspinshaw

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 11:39 pm

LH

70 rounds blasted away rapid, absolutely it'd be extremely hot, but were talking 70 (potential) in 1.5 hours, so no problem. Typically my Sunday is 40 rounds, these go in an hour and the heat is no problem.

The only time I really have found barrel heat a big problem when we did Fort Rinella in Malta October 2011, they used firework powder in their blanks, these turned Martinis into flame throwers, and the amount of magnesium caused unbelievably hot barrels and cartridge cases, it made bayonet fighting excercises hard going, we'd done 30 rounds for the display in 15 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPxVIPcLtrM
I found the footage of use on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNEJlXT--Os&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_567745
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 11:53 pm

Thanks Neil! Salute
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 12:31 am

So if someone had fired 70 rounds. Would they be able to fix a bayonet to the rifle without getting burned.
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90th

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PostSubject: Bayonet Against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 12:47 am

24th read Neil's last post , he gives you his answer ! .
90th
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 10:05 am

He is saying it makes bayonet fighting excerise harder, but not what I wanted to know.
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bill cainan




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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 10:18 am

24th

What Neil was saying (I believe) was that it depends over what period of time the 70 rounds were fired. If it's over an hour or longer, the barrel doesn't get that hot. However, even if the 70 rounds were fired over 6 or 7 minutes, then it is possible to fix the bayonet without your hand coming into contact with the barrel (if you're careful !), though, of course, not per the drill manual !

Bill
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 11:21 am

Thanks Bill, that's what I think we all wanted to hear. As the Artical is referring to Isandlwana I would imagine the barrels would have been extremely hot.
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90th

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PostSubject: Bayonet against Assegai    Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 12:42 pm

24th .
Neil said if you fired the 70 rds in an hour and a half it wouldnt be a problem .
Oldh2 .
Dont forget as Neil has mentioned the old salts of the 24th had been around for a long time and certainly
wouldve had an improvised non army standard sheath to allow for the heating of the Barrel . If all the troops
fired their 70 rds it would have taken them an hour at least from the time the firing started till they were killed , so no doubt it wasnt
to much trouble to fit their bayonets , as I said they were fairly experienced . One only has to look at the medal
Roll to see this as the majority are issued the clasp 77-78-79 ! . I think you'll find the Barrels were a lot hotter at
RD than at Isandlwana ! .
90th.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 3:30 pm

There are many reports that the soldiers were firing fast and hard. The barrels must have been glowing. Unless the whole barrel was covered in hide. Then it woud have been quite a nasty job fixing the bayonet as the bayonet housing would have been hot. Mind you with 20,000 Zulus come at you, a hot barrel would deter one from fixing his bayonet. If he had time!!
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptyTue May 13, 2014 8:52 pm

In reply to article posted by LH first post in this discussion.

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The Aberdare Times. 22ndMarch 1879
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