WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Zulu Dawn Lt. Melvill: “We come here by the orders of the Great Queen Victoria, Queen of all Africa.”
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Walter higginsons statement
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyYesterday at 4:29 pm by Julian Whybra

» Pte John Williams, survivor of Isandlwana
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyYesterday at 2:11 pm by 90th

» Ian Knight Questions and answers
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Aug 02, 2021 8:45 am by Julian Whybra

» Gunner 1448 William Bibby, Royal Artillery, 6th Bde. M Battery
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyFri Jul 30, 2021 6:13 pm by SteveL

» Robert Gordon Wolrige-Gordon 2nd Lieutenant 94th
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyThu Jul 29, 2021 1:55 pm by 90th

» Deputy Inspector-General George Bell Murray
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyThu Jul 29, 2021 12:50 am by ADMIN

» Surgeon Major Henry Lamb
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyThu Jul 29, 2021 12:28 am by ADMIN

» Lieutenant Richard Hawes MacCarthy, 2nd/4th Regiment
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyWed Jul 28, 2021 10:44 pm by ADMIN

» 24th Regiment Pioneers
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyTue Jul 27, 2021 6:20 pm by ADMIN

» Henry Berry
Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Jul 25, 2021 7:35 pm by gardner1879

» Devon Connection.
Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Jul 25, 2021 5:34 pm by 1879graves

» Sir Lionel McMahon 58th Regiment.
Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Jul 25, 2021 4:55 pm by 1879graves

» B Company 1/24th Regimental Records
Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Jul 25, 2021 4:08 pm by gardner1879

» Return from Zululand Private LETHBRIDGE and Corporal BERRY
Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Jul 25, 2021 5:00 am by Celticphred

» Alexander Gordon Cumming Skene.
Bayonet against Assegai EmptySat Jul 24, 2021 7:53 pm by 1879graves

» Could it have been an even bigger disaster?
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyThu Jul 22, 2021 8:46 am by Frank Allewell

» New Book with Zulu War Connection
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Jul 19, 2021 6:06 am by 90th

» ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Jul 18, 2021 2:30 pm by aussie inkosi

» The Zulu dead at Isandlwana
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyFri Jul 16, 2021 5:05 pm by SRB1965

» J Brazier 1/24 foot 1877 - 78 bar
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyFri Jul 16, 2021 6:47 am by 90th

» New Members Welcome.
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyThu Jul 15, 2021 8:53 am by Drummer Boy 14

» Zululand population 1879?
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Jul 12, 2021 7:44 pm by Altamont

» Melvill and Coghill Victoria Cross query
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Jul 12, 2021 6:33 pm by SRB1965

» Yet another Hill of the Sphinx thread
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Jul 12, 2021 6:59 am by 90th

» Zulu War Chess Set
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyFri Jul 09, 2021 10:49 am by Darto

» Joshua Harrod - Which Battles
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyThu Jul 08, 2021 5:30 pm by 1879graves

» Zulu War to Boer war. Those who served in both.
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyWed Jul 07, 2021 6:35 pm by Rory Reynolds

» Lance Sergeant Armstrong Victoria Mounted Rifles
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyWed Jul 07, 2021 6:24 pm by Rory Reynolds

» You tube Video "Fredrick Hitch"
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyTue Jul 06, 2021 11:53 am by aussie inkosi

» Prince Imperial visited
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Jul 05, 2021 1:47 am by 90th

» Isandlwana Casualty - John William Jones Davies
Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Jul 04, 2021 10:50 am by ADMIN

» Colonel W. P. Collingwood
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyWed Jun 23, 2021 10:50 pm by John Young

» (Lieut: R. F. Westmacott. 77th. Foot.)
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyTue Jun 22, 2021 10:35 pm by ADMIN

» HARRY WILLIAM DAVIS,
Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Jun 21, 2021 6:49 am by aussie inkosi

» 90th foot sgt T. Collins 214
Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Jun 20, 2021 2:23 am by 90th

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Walking the battlefield of Kambula
Top posters
90th
Bayonet against Assegai Bar_leftBayonet against Assegai BarBayonet against Assegai Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Bayonet against Assegai Bar_leftBayonet against Assegai BarBayonet against Assegai Bar_right 
littlehand
Bayonet against Assegai Bar_leftBayonet against Assegai BarBayonet against Assegai Bar_right 
ADMIN
Bayonet against Assegai Bar_leftBayonet against Assegai BarBayonet against Assegai Bar_right 
1879graves
Bayonet against Assegai Bar_leftBayonet against Assegai BarBayonet against Assegai Bar_right 
rusteze
Bayonet against Assegai Bar_leftBayonet against Assegai BarBayonet against Assegai Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Bayonet against Assegai Bar_leftBayonet against Assegai BarBayonet against Assegai Bar_right 
John
Bayonet against Assegai Bar_leftBayonet against Assegai BarBayonet against Assegai Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
Bayonet against Assegai Bar_leftBayonet against Assegai BarBayonet against Assegai Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Bayonet against Assegai Bar_leftBayonet against Assegai BarBayonet against Assegai Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Frank Allewell
Bayonet against Assegai Bar_leftBayonet against Assegai BarBayonet against Assegai Bar_right 
90th
Bayonet against Assegai Bar_leftBayonet against Assegai BarBayonet against Assegai Bar_right 
WeekendWarrior
Bayonet against Assegai Bar_leftBayonet against Assegai BarBayonet against Assegai Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Bayonet against Assegai Bar_leftBayonet against Assegai BarBayonet against Assegai Bar_right 
Danny1960
Bayonet against Assegai Bar_leftBayonet against Assegai BarBayonet against Assegai Bar_right 
Bobby Thomson
Bayonet against Assegai Bar_leftBayonet against Assegai BarBayonet against Assegai Bar_right 
Most active topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable.1
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.5
Durnford was he capable. 4
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
smith Forbes Isandlwana zulu henry Durnford carbineers drift melvill harford payne Russell Woolfryes taylor Prince james martini Mounted 24th horse George john Police Franklin Natal spalding
 

 Bayonet against Assegai

Go down 
+6
90th
Neil Aspinshaw
tasker224
24th
Drummer Boy 14
littlehand
10 posters
AuthorMessage
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7077
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 4:34 pm

Neil one for you. Do you agree with this Sgt Major!!

Bruce Herald, Volume XII, Issue 1108, 27 May 1879, Page 3
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


Last edited by littlehand on Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 2001
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 24

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 4:42 pm

The Zulus used their shields to deflect or absorb the Bayonet, an example of this is Umohti.


Cheers
Back to top Go down
24th

24th

Posts : 1858
Join date : 2009-03-25

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 5:05 pm

DB. I think LH is referring to the heating of the rifle and the ability to attached the bayonet , after 70 rounds. Look at what the Sgt Major is saying. No doubt he's experienced in the use of the MH.

Will be interesting of Neil concurs with this Sgt Major.
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 2001
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 24

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 5:14 pm

24th

Point i was trying to make is, even if the gun was very hot there are still many accounts of men using the bayonet
after the ammuntion ran out.


Cheers
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224

Posts : 2102
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 54
Location : North London

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 6:05 pm

I remember reading, don't remember where, that the Zulus had more fear and respect for the bayonet than the bullet; they were more hesitant in front of the bayonet.
DB, I agree, there is much written about the men using bayonets in the hand to hand fighting.
I am sure that the men and NCOs of the 24th would have known the idiosyncracies of the MH in almost as much depth as Neil A.
Back to top Go down
24th

24th

Posts : 1858
Join date : 2009-03-25

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 6:43 pm

Quote :
24th
Point i was trying to make is, even if the gun was very hot there are still many accounts of men using the bayonet
after the ammuntion ran out.
Cheers

But thats not why the artical was posted. It was posted to determine wether or not the Sgt Major is correct. Not to determine if they used Bayonets or not at Isandlwana.
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 2001
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 24

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 7:03 pm

Tasker

I'm sure that was in Hitch's account of RD.


Cheers
Back to top Go down
Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw

Posts : 552
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 7:10 pm

LH
The men of B Company were very adept with the bayonet, and there is no reason why the older men of the 1st battalion were even more proficient with it. Hook certainly chose to comment about it's capability,

Barrel heat was countered with an un-official hide guard, Lloyds paintings illustrates this, however, few contemporary reports apart from this one, regarding heat actually effecting the weapon in close combat , I'm not sure if a nameless "sergeant Major", who was obviously not present, can be regarded as a primary scource.

What we do know is the Enfield Martini, did have an integral guard which clipped onto the barrel, it was not adopted,

http://www.martinihenry.org/index.php?route=product/product&path=61_59&product_id=78





Back to top Go down
http://www.martinihenry.org
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7077
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 7:14 pm

Thanks Neil. But is he correct in that it would have been quite a task, fixing the bayonet after firing 70 shots with regards to burns.
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 2001
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 24

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 7:31 pm

LH

They'd have fixed bayonets before they began to fall back off the firing line, at that time they wouldn't have fired 70 rounds.



Cheers
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224

Posts : 2102
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 54
Location : North London

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 8:12 pm

DB, the Times article LH posted is based on a report by "a sgt major" and does refer to apparent difficaulty fixing bayonets after having fired 70 rounds.
I am sure you are right that bayonets would have been fixed sooner, but i share NA's apparent scepticism of an article not based on a named 1ry source.
Back to top Go down
Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw

Posts : 552
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 11:39 pm

LH

70 rounds blasted away rapid, absolutely it'd be extremely hot, but were talking 70 (potential) in 1.5 hours, so no problem. Typically my Sunday is 40 rounds, these go in an hour and the heat is no problem.

The only time I really have found barrel heat a big problem when we did Fort Rinella in Malta October 2011, they used firework powder in their blanks, these turned Martinis into flame throwers, and the amount of magnesium caused unbelievably hot barrels and cartridge cases, it made bayonet fighting excercises hard going, we'd done 30 rounds for the display in 15 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPxVIPcLtrM
I found the footage of use on youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNEJlXT--Os&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_567745
Back to top Go down
http://www.martinihenry.org
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7077
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptySun Dec 30, 2012 11:53 pm

Thanks Neil! Salute
Back to top Go down
24th

24th

Posts : 1858
Join date : 2009-03-25

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 12:31 am

So if someone had fired 70 rounds. Would they be able to fix a bayonet to the rifle without getting burned.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 10319
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 65
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Bayonet Against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 12:47 am

24th read Neil's last post , he gives you his answer ! .
90th
Back to top Go down
24th

24th

Posts : 1858
Join date : 2009-03-25

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 10:05 am

He is saying it makes bayonet fighting excerise harder, but not what I wanted to know.
Back to top Go down
bill cainan



Posts : 225
Join date : 2011-09-19

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 10:18 am

24th

What Neil was saying (I believe) was that it depends over what period of time the 70 rounds were fired. If it's over an hour or longer, the barrel doesn't get that hot. However, even if the 70 rounds were fired over 6 or 7 minutes, then it is possible to fix the bayonet without your hand coming into contact with the barrel (if you're careful !), though, of course, not per the drill manual !

Bill
Back to top Go down
old historian2

old historian2

Posts : 1095
Join date : 2009-01-14
Location : East London

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 11:21 am

Thanks Bill, that's what I think we all wanted to hear. As the Artical is referring to Isandlwana I would imagine the barrels would have been extremely hot.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 10319
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 65
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Bayonet against Assegai    Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 12:42 pm

24th .
Neil said if you fired the 70 rds in an hour and a half it wouldnt be a problem .
Oldh2 .
Dont forget as Neil has mentioned the old salts of the 24th had been around for a long time and certainly
wouldve had an improvised non army standard sheath to allow for the heating of the Barrel . If all the troops
fired their 70 rds it would have taken them an hour at least from the time the firing started till they were killed , so no doubt it wasnt
to much trouble to fit their bayonets , as I said they were fairly experienced . One only has to look at the medal
Roll to see this as the majority are issued the clasp 77-78-79 ! . I think you'll find the Barrels were a lot hotter at
RD than at Isandlwana ! .
90th.
Back to top Go down
John

John

Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 58
Location : UK

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptyMon Dec 31, 2012 3:30 pm

There are many reports that the soldiers were firing fast and hard. The barrels must have been glowing. Unless the whole barrel was covered in hide. Then it woud have been quite a nasty job fixing the bayonet as the bayonet housing would have been hot. Mind you with 20,000 Zulus come at you, a hot barrel would deter one from fixing his bayonet. If he had time!!
Back to top Go down
Ray63

Ray63

Posts : 706
Join date : 2012-05-05

Bayonet against Assegai Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bayonet against Assegai   Bayonet against Assegai EmptyTue May 13, 2014 8:52 pm

In reply to article posted by LH first post in this discussion.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
The Aberdare Times. 22ndMarch 1879
Back to top Go down
 
Bayonet against Assegai
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: BRITISH / COLONIAL UNIFORMS. WEAPONS.-
Jump to: