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90th
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free1954




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PostSubject: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyTue May 21, 2013 9:52 am

is there a map somewhere on line that shows the battle and the position of troops?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyTue May 21, 2013 11:25 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Lots of maps photos sketches etc, its a fun site to look around.

Cheers
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyTue May 21, 2013 12:44 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
I still maintain, if the British and colonials had been positioned on the side of the hill, they would have stood a better chance. They would have had enough time to locate ammo stations as the ammunition would have been with in carrying distance, the hill would have been a natural defence preventing attack from behind. The men would have been fighting as one company rather than individual companies spread all over the battlefield. They should have taken a leaf out of Younghusband’s book, he saw a natural defence protecting his rear. The large boulders would have afforded some protection, along with the Zulus having to fight up hill.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyTue May 21, 2013 1:23 pm

Cant fault that. Salute
They could have hidden behind all those red boulders. :p;:
The camp would have been a mess though.

Cheers

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyTue May 21, 2013 1:34 pm

Good Point!!! "They could have hidden behind all those red boulders." Didn't see those?
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free1954




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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyTue May 21, 2013 7:33 pm

thanks gentlemen for the replies.
springbok 9 yes sir there is a lot on that link to look at, thanks for posting.
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runner2




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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyTue May 21, 2013 8:57 pm

Littlehand.
Younghusband was guilty of getting most of his command killed. You don't run down the slope into a mass of frenzied Zulus. An absolutely terrible decision. No one seems to understand that. He could of held his position for quite sometime, if he'd used his loaf.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyTue May 21, 2013 9:07 pm

I think the change down the slope was a myth! I don't think he had a choice, he was followed along the ridge by Zulus, I think he got has far as he could, before being forced down into the masses below.
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old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyTue May 21, 2013 9:56 pm

littlehand wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
I still maintain, if the British and colonials had been positioned on the side of the hill, they would have stood a better chance. They would have had enough time to locate ammo stations as the ammunition would have been with in carrying distance, the hill would have been a natural defence preventing attack from behind. The men would have been fighting as one company rather than individual companies spread all over the battlefield. They should have taken a leaf out of Younghusband’s book, he saw a natural defence protecting his rear. The large boulders would have afforded some protection, along with the Zulus having to fight up hill.

Agree. agree
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyTue May 21, 2013 10:11 pm

Looks good on photo!

Never been there. We would need to know how via- able in would be to be able to position men on the slope. I read men were posted on the summit, but don't know his true that is!
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed May 22, 2013 7:14 am

CTSG
Been there on a couple of occasions, its perfectly feasable. It would have meant abandoning the camp area though. This was in fact the scenario that Chelmsford said he would have expected to happen ( after the event mind you)
There was a look out posted on the summit itself but any defence would have taken place on the skirts as LH has indicated.

Runner2
Backed up against a wall, no ammunition, force slowly being killed of, no relief in site, no hope of suvival. So yes, charge down the slope on mass to try and reach the troops/ ammunition below. Id say its a perfectly feasable action

John
Ignore history if you want, your bag.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed May 29, 2013 6:12 am

Hello to all

Incredible, there still are people who imagine that the battle Issandhlwana, could be won ... :p;: :p;: :p;:

Cheers

Pascal the Rascal
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed May 29, 2013 9:13 am

It could have been won, if there had been an officer present who knew what he was doing. There was enough men and weapons.
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free1954




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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed May 29, 2013 10:26 am

while looking around on the web I found this site with some great pictures [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


my apologies if it's been posted before
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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed May 29, 2013 1:17 pm

Incredible, there still are people who imagine that the battle Issandhlwana, could be won ... :p;: :p;: :p;: :p;: :p;: :p;: :p;: :p;: :p;: :p;: :p;:
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90th

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PostSubject: Battle map of Isandlwana    battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed May 29, 2013 2:35 pm

Hi free1954.
Dont think that has been posted previously , some interesting photo's that's for sure . Thanks for posting the link .
Cheers 90th.
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90th

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PostSubject: Battle map of Isandlwana    battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed May 29, 2013 2:50 pm

Impi you must be a supreme optimist , how do you think only 1,500 if there were that many Imperial troops were going to hold off
20,000 Zulus ? , obviously you havent read what Wood said about the Battle Of Kambula ! . There wasnt the manpower or weaponry to hold the Camp at Isandlwana and I dont think it matters who was in command , I'm happy for you to correct me if you can find any military historian who thinks the result could've been reversed . I'm sure Neil Aspinshaw among others has also mentioned the fact that there wasnt enough men or arms to hold off the numbers they were facing , it may have delayed the inevitable but the result would be the same .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed May 29, 2013 3:07 pm

It is exactly this Marsupial, impossible to win this battle in conditions or it is triggered ...
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed May 29, 2013 11:01 pm

John has posted the possible ammunition expenditure which could have been achieved, if the men had been positioned correctly, with a constant supply of ammunition. The fire would have been far too hot for the Zulus to maintain a head on attack. The casualty rate would have been far too high; the Zulus would have given up.
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90th

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PostSubject: Battle map of Isandlwana    battle map of isandlwana EmptyThu May 30, 2013 4:44 am

Not to sure John is an expert regarding rates of fire in the Brtish Army in Victorian times ! . No disrepect is inferred .
The zulu and surely you know this fact DIDNT RELY ON A FRONTAL ASSAULT ! . Not yelling but emphasising .
The terrain is easy enough to surround and launch assaults from 3 sides as is what happened , I'm assuming your defence is to form square ??? , if so , they probably only have enough rifles for 350 each side which isnt enough , forget about trneches as the terrain is to rocky at the hill , you didnt answer my question regarding Wood's thoughts about Kambula ! , find a book , and read what Wood said of kambula , and here's a tip , it's in regard to his fortifications which he laid out at kambula . Forgot to add , as is constantly pointed out , Pulleine was to DEFEND the camp , cant very well do that if he's formed square or some other defensive position you may have in mind , when there were 200 - 300 wagons with supplies in the camp ???????. Think about it and read Kambula , it could not be saved once LC left and may have been lost even if LC was there also . He hadnt done anything in regard to fortifying , remember he canned the idea of fortification when it was brought up by Glynn among others , surely you know this already , its been discussed ' ad nauseum ' !
90th.
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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyThu May 30, 2013 8:40 am

Sorry, but firing rates were too slow at Isandhlwana to hope to win the battle ...

In combat all goes well slower than in training, and at Isandhlwana the imperial infantry has not even taken four shots at the minute, if they have MLRS, they would shoot as fast and as far...600 yards axi for the fires of the infantry and artillery after the instructions of LC to Pulleine...

The size of the imperial infantry was too weak at Isandhlwana .Because at Kambula, there were 15 company in the shelter, and the battle in time is 4 hours ... And I'm not talking about artillery pieces ...


A discovered, it takes a minimum of 25 companies of the Imperial infantry to avoid a massacre ... And I'm not talking about artillery pieces ...

Maybe that forming a laager with the 106 wagons and carts, even before the arrival of Durnsford to put in shelters, those who do not have horses ... But LC had prohibited it ...

Cheers

Pascal The Rascal
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free1954




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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyTue Jun 04, 2013 10:36 am

thanks to all for your help. here is the best map I've found. (so far)
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyTue Jun 04, 2013 11:00 am

Good !
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptySun Jun 09, 2013 5:38 pm

Just one problem...there are mistakes on the map.
Look at where Barry's coy moves or rather doesn't move among others.
Look at Jackson's series of maps in Hill of the Sphinx for a better overview.
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyTue Jun 11, 2013 10:08 pm

Has anyone got a copy of the map sketched by Penn-Symonds.
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90th

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PostSubject: Battle map of Isandlwana    battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 12, 2013 3:54 am

Ray I've sent the map drawn by Capt William Penn - Symons to Pete ( Admin ), hopefully he'll post it soon for you . See how easy it is to make errors in names , as you asked for the Penn - Symonds map , when his name is Symons ! . Mistakes would also occur with rolls back in the day , this is not having a go at you or anyone else , just stating how it's so easy to make errors regarding names or numbers . In case you arent aware , Penn - Symons was killed in the 2nd Boer war 1899 - 1902 , at the Battle of Talana Hill from memory , happy to be corrected .
90th
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 12, 2013 4:11 am

Unfortunatly the Symons map has to rank along side the Essex, Gardner etc maps. They were all drawn from a localised point of view. The reconstructed maps are generally more exact. And untill a map of the ridge is found ( and there is one) the positions of the two companies is entirely speculative. ( Even Jacksons ).

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 12, 2013 6:20 am

And the map in the book "Narrative of the field operations connected with the Zulu war of 1879," she is valid ?
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Battle map of Isandlwana    battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 12, 2013 6:26 am

For some reason the pic of the map hasnt come through to my email so cant send it to pete . If anyone has a copy of ' The Noble 24th ' by Norman Holme , the map's in it .
Cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 12, 2013 7:50 am

Eh Marsupial ,the map in the book "Narrative of the field operations connected with the Zulu war of 1879," is valid ???
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Battle map of Isandlwana    battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 12, 2013 11:00 am

Hi Rascal .
I assume it's valid it was prepared by Thomas Anstey , the brother of E.O.Anstey who was killed at Isandlwana . I cant remember anyone
saying it wasnt a valid map .
Cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 12, 2013 11:52 am

And where is the best map for isandhlwana ?
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90th

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PostSubject: Battle map of Isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 12, 2013 12:09 pm

Hi Rascal .
That I dont know but they all seem similar .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 12, 2013 1:29 pm

Yeah that's true, it's like the historians, they copy on each other !
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Umbiki

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyFri Jun 14, 2013 11:28 am

For maps of the key sites in the Anglo-Zulu War generally, including iSandlwana, and more besides, I would recommend the Laband/Thompson 'Field Guide to The War In Zululand and the Defence of Natal 1879'.
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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyFri Jun 14, 2013 12:01 pm

I expected to see that on this forum !...
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Umbiki

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyFri Jun 14, 2013 12:48 pm

I'm pleased not to have disappointed then ...
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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyFri Jun 14, 2013 1:01 pm

I expect that someone can put them on the forum !
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Umbiki

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyFri Jun 14, 2013 2:34 pm

Doubt it - copyright.
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90th

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PostSubject: battle map of Isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyFri Jun 14, 2013 3:46 pm

Hi Rascal .
I searched for a couple of hours for the Laband map but couldnt find one with enough detail to read what was on it !.
90th.
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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyFri Jun 14, 2013 3:55 pm

Hi Marsupial:D:D:D:D

Thank you anyway ...

You did not find one with enough detail to read what was on it.Very Happy:D:D:D

This is what must have happened to LC when it came to Zululand, dout his troubles the January 22, 1879 ...Very Happy:D:D:D

PTR
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyMon Jul 01, 2013 10:00 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] 
Looking at the NNC position makes one wonder, just what was happening at Isandlwana, when you consider they only had one rifle to evry ten men. No wonder they bolted?
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyTue Jul 02, 2013 8:33 pm

LH. The NCC I can see are close to the British regiments. So not sure what you mean. Younghusband's and other Compaines are further out?
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: battle map of isandlwana   battle map of isandlwana EmptyWed Jul 03, 2013 8:21 am

Impi. Look at the left hand side of the map. just up from Lieutenant Cavaye company. A forward position of NCC.
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