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» Sir Henry Bartle Frere letter to Sir Henry Ponsonby
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» Boy 1st Class Thomas Harris
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» List of identified bodies at Isandlwana
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» 1595 Pte. E. Jones 2/24th
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» Zulu War Medal
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» Great Grandfather James (Jimmy) Robinson DCM
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» Trpr. Simpson's medal
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» Someone maybe able to help. 2235 Pte A F Edmonds J7th DCOLrg
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» Medal ribbon on Patrol Jacket
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» One of the lesser-known stories. It took place around the same time as Isandlwana.
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» Isandlwana Survivor photo's
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» <Pte. W. Dunne 2nd Btn 3rd (East Kent) Regiment ('The Buffs') & Sgt. O. Hydenburg (Aydenburg) Natal Native Contingent,)
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» William Papworth. Alan Gardner's servant.
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» Smith-Dorrien 1881
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» nTshingwayo ka Mahole
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» George Astell Pardoe Lieutentant, 13th Light Infantry
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» Press coverage of the Zulu King
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 Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records

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John

John

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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 2:53 pm

As an add on to the above.

Reynolds extract. 
The only men actually killed in the hospital were three, excluding a Kaffir under treatment for compound fracture of the femur. The names were Sergeant Maxfield, Private Jenkins, both unable to assist in their escape, being debilitated by fever.

Reynolds makes it sound as though Jenkins couldn't move and he never witness the above. So he must have assumed this, after being told Jenkins was dead. (Hearsay)

George Smith Extract. 
One poor fellow (Jenkins), venturing through one of these was also seized and dragged away.

Smith account must cast doub't on Reynolds account because he states Jenkins was able to move from room to room. Again Smith never witness this, he was not in the hospital. Again this can only be hear say!


Last edited by John on Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 2:54 pm

24th and John
Your remarks are inaccurate.  Have you actually read the essay in my book?
Kopie
Feel free to quote what you like from my essay.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 3:01 pm

Julian I'm looking at the primary sources from the day, not old news paper reports.

How could Roy have been with the escort party?
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 3:35 pm

Contemporary newspaper reports ARE primary sources.

These resulted from interviews conducted with the soldiers as they landed:
The Times (no less!) 3.10.79 names the five surviving members of the escort party.
So does the Hampshire Advertiser County Newspaper 4.10.79.
The Aldershot Military Gazette 11.10.79 names four of them.

Roy in his own account states that he happened to be in the hospital with a sore throat.
We know Roy was in the escort. We know the escort was held up at RD on its return to the column. Ergo, a likely reason would be that Roy was taken ill.

As for Roy and Waters being in E coy I am unable to find any evidence that this was the case. I would be very grateful if anyone can supply it.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 3:37 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
24th and John
Your remarks are inaccurate.  Have you actually read the essay in my book?
Kopie
Feel free to quote what you like from my essay
.

Now this should be interesting. Let's see just how many on the forum brought this book?  Very Happy All claming it proves without doubt Jenkins was there. I still stand by what I said ages ago, it will tell us nothing we don't already know!

John totally agree with Smith's & Reynolds accounts contradicting each other. Along with Willam Roy not being part of the escort party.
Kris Wheatley research is without errors.

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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 3:43 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Contemporary newspaper reports ARE primary sources.

Only when suited to your needs. In the past you have condemned News Papers reports from the day.

These resulted from interviews conducted with the soldiers as they landed:
The Times (no less!) 3.10.79 names the five surviving members of the escort party.
So does the Hampshire Advertiser County Newspaper 4.10.79.
The Aldershot Military Gazette 11.10.79 names four of them.

Roy in his own account states that he happened to be in the hospital with a sore throat.
We know Roy was in the escort.  We know the escort was held up at RD on its return to the column.  Ergo, a likely reason would be that Roy was taken ill.

How do you know Roy was with the escort. ? It's been said that the party retuned from collecting their charges and were stranded with them at RD.

More likly he didn't want to worry his family with the seriousness of his illness.

As for Roy and Waters being in E coy I am unable to find any evidence that this was the case.  I would be very grateful if anyone can supply it.
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Mr M. Cooper

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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 3:56 pm

Still no one answering the question of who was the Jenkins that saved Chard's life?

It wasn't the other Jenkins in the hospital, and it wasn't the Jenkins killed at iSandlwana.

So come on all you brain boxes who doubt David Jenkins was at RD, tell us who was this other Jenkins that saved Chard's life??????

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 3:59 pm

impi
I'm sorry to disappoint you but Kris believes that Roy was a member of the escort party.

I have not 'condemned newspaper reports from the day'.  I am not quite sure what you mean by 'condemned' in this phrase.  I repeat that contemporary newspaper reports are primary sources.

How do I know Roy was with the escort?  Because he said so.  I'm assuming you can read.  Look at my previous post.  The escort party, standing to one side, was interviewed, said what they were doing at RD, and their names were recorded.  How much plainer do you want it?

As with chard1879, your knowledge base is out-of-date and it demeans any opinion you offer in this matter.  You simply are no longer taken seriously.  I shan't be responding to your future posts.  It's pointless.

Martin

Thank goodness there's someone with some intelligence and an ability to analyse logically out there.
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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 4:02 pm

i bought it  Salute 
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 4:03 pm

Julian.

 Salute 
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Lee Stevenson



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 4:05 pm

Julian,
Roy returned to Dundee on furlough in October 1879,and was interviewed by a reporter from the Dundee Courier (Mon 13/10/1879).
"Corporal Roy, it may be remarked, holds the unique position of being the only individual now alive of E Company, of the first battalion of the 24th Regiment, as it existed on the day previous to Isandula., and to this circumstance he is indebted to a sore throat, which prevented him from being with his company on that disastrous field..."

Narrative of Field Ops states 10 prisoners taken at action at Sihayo's. Norris-Newman mentions there being some consternation amongst officers that prisoners, mostly women and children were released, and sent back to their kraals, under orders of the General. Just to clarify then are there any other contemporary report of the Zulu prisoners??
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 4:31 pm

Lee - many many thanks. That is very useful information. Is that the same newspaper in which Roy's account is published - it's on p. 94 of your and Alan's book?
Re the prisoners the official no. of them was indeed 10 - but my reading of Norris-Newman is that this was in addition to a large number of women and children (who were let go). He doesn't say that the men were released.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 4:47 pm

In the Legacy book, it does state that Roy had been left behind as a patient. It's neither near or there what the illness was, either way he was in the hospital days before the Battle. So we can take him out of the picture of the escort party.

There is something on the forum regarding a chief and another being taken prisoner by the force out with Chelmsford early hours of the 22nd Jan.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 4:51 pm

""The following letter has been received by the father of William Sweeney, Colonel Glyn’s column, 24th Regiment. The parents live at Union Street, Royton.

At about 3:45 a.m. on the morning of the 22nd we were awakened by the colour sergeant of our company at a place called Intaman. Our orders were not to make a noise or light a candle. At about 4:30 a.m. we received coffee and preserved meat. We marched out of camp at about 5:10 a.m. to a distance of about 12 miles. We were about to halt for the night on the top of a very high hill, and just as our men got their clothes off the General rode in, and ordered us to dress again as quickly as possible.

Just before that we captured nine prisoners, one of them being a chief’s son. One was wounded in the leg, another on the shin.

We dressed at once and marched out about 1,800 strong to meet the enemy; leaving about 500 Europeans in camp to guard it, one company of ours and five companies of our first battalion. Our infantry company was No.7, the officer in charge was Mr. Pope, your master for a short time in Sheffield; and I must mention one man in particular, as you knew him very well indeed. His name was M’Cracken, and he married a Blackpool woman. He was left in camp as he was a servant, while the remainder of our regiment was out looking for the enemy. The Zulus attacked or camp while half of the men were washing their clothes, as any good soldier does whenever he has the chance. The enemy sent 150 in front of our camp in skirmishing order, to attract the attention of all our spies, and, of course, our chaps formed to attack the coming skirmishers, and then the Zulus crept round the back in thousands. There were half our men fighting without any arms at all, on account of having been cooking. The number of our regiment left there was 181 men, captains, and sergeants and five officers, and not one escaped, so far as we know at resent. Thanks be to God for being allowed to write, as it were a godsend I was not there.
After we got the order to return to camp to the aid of our poor fellows little we knew of their fate at the time. After we had been moving towards our camp about an hour and a half we were halted by our general, Lord Chelmsford, and he spoke to us in quiet tones, “Now chaps, the Zulus have turned our flank and taken our stores and ammunition, tents, and every other thing. It is commencing to get dark and all we have to do is take our camp to-night.” With that, our chaps, all young fellows, gave three cheers, and that was after marching 30 miles that day. On the spot we got in attacking order; our big guns, four in number, six companies to guard the four guns, three companies on each side of the guns, the natives being next to us, and the mounted men on the outside to guard the flank. In this form we marched a mile, when we got the order to halt and load the big guns with case shot and fire. We fired about a dozen rounds and again advanced another half-mile. We then got an order to fire a volley, and we did so; but no-one returned our fire. We next got the order to fix bayonets. It was then dark. About half-past nine we raised a cheer, as the word chare was given us and we charged up the hill but the enemy was gone.

To my sorrow the first dead man I came to I fell over. Of course, I could not see him at the time, but I struck a match, and it was of my own company, named Watkins. He had his brains knocked in with some blunt instrument, and the whole of his bowels ripped open. We kept going on, tumbling over one another till we got the order to halt at the top of the hill, and rest till morning, as the whole of our men were awfully fatigued from their hard marching the day before. When we did lie down there was scarcely any of our chaps could go to sleep, thinking of the poor fellows who were lying dead around. I was laid down alongside of a chap from the 1st battalion, who was dreadfully mutilated.

We marched from that place at daybreak. The number killed was 23 officers, 551 of all ranks, Quartermaster Bloomfield, Lieutenants Pope and Austin, Adjutants Dyer and Griffiths,  Quartermaster –sergeant Davis, Sergeant Beavers, Ross, Lines, Carse, Bandmaster Bullard, M’Caffery, Haigh, Cheir, Shaw, two drummers, Anderson and Holmes, and five little boys of the band, 14 years of age. They butchered them most horribly indeed. One little chap, named M’Every, they hung up by a chin to a hook, and then they cut his legs off; and four other little ones they hung up to the waggons. I heard it said the Zulus don’t think a white man is dead until his bowels are ripped open.

Our chaps brought in a wounded Zulu today. They got all out of him they could, and then they hung him up, and all the time I am writing this he is still there.

We can’t go fighting now for a while, as we have lost all our clothing. They took everything they could lay their hands on, and broke all the band instruments. A young officer of ours was making away with our colours, but he was killed on the way. We are expected to be relieved to-day by four companies of the 4th Regiment. I hope it won’t be long before they find us. We have not got a blanket, coat, or even a second shirt or socks. I am commencing to feel very uncomfortable myself, and I can put up with as much as anyone.
On the day after attacking our camp it was garrisoned by 80 men of B Company. About 3,000 Zulus came on our chaps about three on the same evening. Our boys made a fort of all the bags of corn, and bags of flour, meal, and all sorts of stuff. The enemy came on in rushes times out of number and our chaps mowed them down as fast as they came up. Several of the Zulus got over the fort, but our chaps on the inside were waiting for them with the bayonet. You would be surprised to see the horrible murder as ever was committed. Those 80 men kept them off from three o’clock in the afternoon of the 22nd until six a.m. on the 23rd for the loss of 14 men.  One of them had a most horrible death. He was assagaid with long knives. His name was Billy Horrigan. He joined the regiment at Cork. Each of the men in the fort that night used 150 rounds. The general said that if he had 1,000 men like that he would face 10,000 Zulus. Our General left us the following morning for a place called Helpmakaar, and he made use of the words before he left us that he would not leave us a minute, but he could rely on us wherever he went; and he told us he would take the two regiments home with him when it was all over – that was with was left of us. There are now only left of the two regiments about 600 men. Major Dunbar was with me on that awful day. I have very hard work to perform now. We are erecting batteries and forts. I made a mistake in the number of men we lost; it is a great deal more - 21 officers, 21 sergeants, 29 corporals, 12 drummers, and 649 other ranks. We must have killed over 3,000 Zulus on that day. After we had re-captured our camp we found two Zulus drunk on our liquor.

Dear Father, now I must tell you how it is I am safe. I was very ill with the dysentry, and, when we had marched two miles, I had to fall out. The regiment would be almost two miles in front when I got up to make the attempt to come with them, but I fell down through fatigue and sickness. They put me in the ambulance to take me back to the camp. The doctor gave me some medicine, which relieved me so much that I got out and ran after my regiment.
                     ____________________
Transcribed by M Higgins, 
The Oldham Chronicle may have self –interpreted the soldier’s  handwriting , hence the spelling ‘Intaman’ .  It may not be the whole letter. The place of writing, which would seem to be Rorke’s Drift, is not named in the paragraph recounting the fight there.  The letter was published in long column form. Paragraph breaks are mine.  Punctuation etc. as published in the newspaper."

Source: AZWHS

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John

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 4:59 pm

Did the 2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment have an E. Company
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Julian Whybra wrote:
impi
I'm sorry to disappoint you but Kris believes that Roy was a member of the escort party.

I have not 'condemned newspaper reports from the day'.  I am not quite sure what you mean by 'condemned' in this phrase.  I repeat that contemporary newspaper reports are primary sources.

How do I know Roy was with the escort?  Because he said so.  I'm assuming you can read.  Look at my previous post.  The escort party, standing to one side, was interviewed, said what they were doing at RD, and their names were recorded.  How much plainer do you want it?

As with chard1879, your knowledge base is out-of-date and it demeans any opinion you offer in this matter.  You simply are no longer taken seriously.  I shan't be responding to your future posts.  It's pointless.

Martin

Thank goodness there's someone with some intelligence and an ability to analyse logically out there.

So why write different in the book!
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 5:05 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
Still no one answering the question of who was the Jenkins that saved Chard's life?

It wasn't the other Jenkins in the hospital, and it wasn't the Jenkins killed at iSandlwana.

So come on all you brain boxes who doubt David Jenkins was at RD, tell us who was this other Jenkins that saved Chard's life??????


Martin. Julian has given the go ahead for his book to be quoted, quote something from the book, that's shows us he was there, we all have an open mind. Something new that we don't already know.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 5:08 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Contemporary newspaper reports ARE primary sources.

These resulted from interviews conducted with the soldiers as they landed:
The Times (no less!) 3.10.79 names the five surviving members of the escort party.
So does the Hampshire Advertiser County Newspaper 4.10.79.
The Aldershot Military Gazette 11.10.79 names four of them.

Roy in his own account states that he happened to be in the hospital with a sore throat.
We know Roy was in the escort.  We know the escort was held up at RD on its return to the column.  Ergo, a likely reason would be that Roy was taken ill.

As for Roy and Waters being in E coy I am unable to find any evidence that this was the case.  I would be very grateful if anyone can supply it.

I have look at your previous post, there is nothing to show Roy was with the escort party. Only you saying " We know Roy was in the escort" that's not primary source.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 5:23 pm



So to recap.

We can all see now that, Reynolds and Smiths accounts are floored! 

We now know William Roy wasn't with the Escort party as he was an inmate in the Hospital prior to the Battles! 

We can now assumed that the Jenkins killed in the Hospital was able to move, thanks to Smiths account, and it's possible that he could have gotten out of the hospital, and returned. Thus allowing him to have told chard to duck down! 

We now have doubt regarding the Bible and it's possible David Jenkins signed his own name. Unfortunately there part will have to remain unfounded. But still opens the door for opinion! 

We know that UK newspapers printed stories from those that claimed to have been at Isandlwana, but we're infact out with Lord Chelmsford ! 

We have the Legacy book showing us where Roy was before and during the Battle of Rorke's Drift in Hospital.  But have Julian stating the author believes Roy was with the escort party? 
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And all very valid points!  Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 6:11 pm

John wrote:
Did the 2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment have an E. Company

Lance Sgt James Taylor was in E Company.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 6:20 pm

impi wrote:


We can all see now that, Reynolds and Smiths accounts are floored! 


No impi, the only 2 people aroung here who are "floored" is you and Chard, as neither of you have a leg
to stand on.

No chard, you and impi have no valid opinion, and as such the points you make are worthless, pointless and uninformed.
It is clear neither neither of you  Joker  have even read JW's research which is the most valid and up to date research.

Reynolds was the surgeon at RD, a primary source author. An educated man of medicine who declared Jones in hospital as "incapacitated." Now whilst this may mean that Pte Jones (hospital) was not unable to scramble through a loophole to preserve his own life - it is amazing what one can do, and what strength one can summon when one's life is in imminent and immediate danger - "incapacitated" means that in terms of loosing off rounds at the wall and being being alert enough to save lt Chard's life, this was not it. Jones at wall was David.
Chard, impi. This is the last time I will respond to either of your posts on the David Jenkins topic. You are both timewasting  Joker s.


Last edited by kopie on Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 6:22 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:

So come on all you brain boxes who doubt David Jenkins was at RD, tell us who was this other Jenkins that saved Chard's life??????


Martin,
impi thinks it was 1083 Pte Jenkins... say no more!
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 7:37 pm

Julian
Yes same paper, his 'Narrative of a Dundee Soldier' letter appeared on Tuesday 11/3/1879.
The same paper also carried another piece two days later, (13/3/1879), which stated;
"...A few days after the news of the terrible disaster at Isandula reached this country, Private Roy's parents received a letter from him dated 20th January, in which he stated that he was in hospital at Rorke's Drift suffering from a sore throat, and lamented that he would be unable to proceed with his comrades on the following day...."
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Lee, I see Ian Knight recommendation of you proves to be correct!

"(Lee Stevenson Publishing, 2003) is an invaluable compendium of eye-witness accounts)"




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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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So Roy was in Hospital on the 20th Jan, two days before the Battle. Prisoner escort! not so I'm afraid!
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 8:05 pm

impi wrote:


So to recap.

We can all see now that, Reynolds and Smiths accounts are floored! 

We now know William Roy wasn't with the Escort party as he was an inmate in the Hospital prior to the Battles! 

We can now assumed that the Jenkins killed in the Hospital was able to move, thanks to Smiths account, and it's possible that he could have gotten out of the hospital, and returned. Thus allowing him to have told chard to duck down! 

We now have doubt regarding the Bible and it's possible David Jenkins signed his own name. Unfortunately there part will have to remain unfounded. But still opens the door for opinion! 

We know that UK newspapers printed stories from those that claimed to have been at Isandlwana, but we're infact out with Lord Chelmsford ! 

We have the Legacy book showing us where Roy was before and during the Battle of Rorke's Drift in Hospital.  But have Julian stating the author believes Roy was with the escort party? 

Number 2 correct!
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 8:23 pm

Deleted. Unnecessary and off topic comment!
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The odd thing is, Julian has given the go ahead to quote from his book. But no one seems to be partaking in that offer. If so many think Julian's Publication is correct, quote from it. that's if they have a copy!

Deleted

The Jenkins case, is just not that clean cut!!!!!!!!!!!
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Gent's we seem to be going back down the rocky road to lock down. Please keep the discussion on topic.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 9:32 pm

oh all-right five! i can well imagine you lot
pm'ing each other, getting primed for your
assault's  Very Happy  have a whip round between
your selfs, read and digest the truth it
contain's! The Family's Happy, The Regt is
Happy, The researchers are Happy, and i
as your average punter, am Happy, and
you lot are Not! you are not exactlly a
large minority pressure group, like the
peoples front of judea, now there's a prop
per opposition party! Admin  Very Happy just a bit
more please..
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Les, calm yourself. If the topic is annoying you that much, don't contribute, it will run it's course. There has been over 1300 replies in this topic, another couple of hundred, won't make a difference.  Rolling Eyes 

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Pete, your the man!  Salute  will do!.
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John

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Les, gives us a bit of evidence from Julian's book You need to study mo  that's puts Jenkins at RD. Go on you know you want to.  agree 
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So Sorry! i could, i would, but admin says
i cant play with you lot anymore, rough
boys!  Wink   Salute 
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He didn't say that, did he Les!!!  Very Happy 
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i know, i think i'm grounded  Very Happy   :Salute
1879graves  agree   Salute 
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Nice post Andy!! Hope your well.  agree 
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 11:00 pm

I am fine thanks Admin, just sitting back and watching  Very Happy 

Hope you are well too  Salute 
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySat Jan 18, 2014 11:16 pm

Well he certainly knew a lot of details about Isandlwana more so than Rorke’s Drift,

“It was an awful sight, to see dead men lying in heaps all over the camp”

“We were under the command of Col Durnford”

"He sent one company out skirmishing and they were never seen again"

"They hung up drummer boys on hooks"

This is the same information a lot of those out with LC Sent home in letters to give the impression they took part in the battle, Jenkins is trying to do the same.
He doesn’t mention anything about saving Major Chards life, which any normal person would.
And just because he says he was at Rorke’s Drift doesn’t mean he was. We had an account from a chap (Yankee Dan) who gave a lot more information about the battle and who was there, than Jenkins has. Julian dismissed than!

Sorry by this proves nothing!
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Zululand
January 26, 1879
"Dear Father,
Just a few lines to let you know that I am one of the ten that escaped out of five companies. The remainder were cut to pieces, - in fact cut in bits – with those savages. About 15,000 of them came on the camp when the column was out. All in camp were killed – 495 of our regiment and about 300 of different corps. Oh I never saw such a sight. Please pray to God to continue to save my life. There are only 240 men remaining in our regiment. So no more. I shall write again soon if alive.
Dear father, please go personally or write a letter to Isaac Lewis, Pendra, Brecon and tell him that his son in law, Sgt. Chambers is killed. His son Thomas is alive but still in hospital with fever. He had a very narrow escape. He crept on his hands and knees and came from the hospital to the fort through all the firing. Please give my love to all, and write soon.
Your affectionate son.
D. Jenkins
P.S. I think we will go down to the colony to get re-fitted, as we have lost everything."


The letter posted by 1879 Graves. Helpmakkar March 11th 1879


PS I forgot to mention in my letter dated the 26th Jan, Three days after the Battle I was at Rorke's Drift!

By March the 11th He would have gathered enough information, to make the folks back home believe he was at RD. He may well have been at Rorke's Drift and like a lot who said they were, after the Battle!!!

Look it's all a load of nonsense. Leave him on the made up museum roll. He wasn't at RD and you have nothing to show he was.
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Ray63

Ray63

Posts : 706
Join date : 2012-05-05

Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 19, 2014 12:00 am

Out with Lord Chelmsford not at Isandlwana. Wonder where his family thought he was ?

"
1415 Thomas Thomas of Ystalyfera to his Uncle and Aunt.

I am very sorry to tell you that we see very hard times of it out here now. We are on the march all the time and we have not seen a bit of bread this last two months, only biscuits all the time and we are often on the road for two or three days at a stretch, that we don't get coffee or tea, only dry biscuit; it is an awful place for water. Another thing, we have to write with powder and water and I had to pay fourpence for this sheet of paper and envelope...
We had a very hard fight for about three hours at a place called Isandhlwana. The Zulus attacked our camp and as soon as we saw them coming, we struck the tents and formed square around the ammunition, and we kept them back for three hours. The General was not with us at the time; he was out somewhere and the colonel that was in command of us (as soon as he saw the Zulus retiring) ordered us to advance after them. We went about 300 yards and they were so many that they came in our rear and took the camp and everything that belonged to us; they came about us so thick that we could not handle our guns and then we knocked them down with the butt of the gun; the Zulus killed about 1841 of our fellows altogether but we ourselves killed some of the volunteers because they were running away and the colonel in command shot himself because he knew he had done wrong. He should not have put us to advance after them and leave the ammunition. However, we killed about 6000 that day. David Davies has been killed"


This article appeared in the North Wales Express, 18 April 1879.
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Ray63

Ray63

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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 19, 2014 12:20 am

Didn't Lord Chelmsford's force arrive around 7am at RD on the 23rd Jan. Mr Jenkins was still fighting until 9am.
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 19, 2014 12:26 am

impi.

Your getting worse mate, read the evidence again, David Jenkins WAS on the Chard roll all the time, it was his number that was wrong.

Ray63

Thomas Thomas was a known and proven liar, so why post that rubbish when it has already been proved to be a load of lies and garbage.
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Chard1879

Chard1879

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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 19, 2014 12:35 am

Martin, Click on page 1 and start again! Your way behind. You paraphrase everything Julian says. If its was that simple, there wouldn't be over a thousand posts in this thread. If your minds made up that he was there, then there's is no more for you to say. His number was wrong job done say no more wink, wink!!!!
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Chard1879

Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 19, 2014 12:36 am

impi wrote:
Zululand
January 26, 1879
"Dear Father,
Just a few lines to let you know that I am one of the ten that escaped out of five companies. The remainder were cut to pieces, - in fact cut in bits – with those savages. About 15,000 of them came on the camp when the column was out. All in camp were killed – 495 of our regiment and about 300 of different corps. Oh I never saw such a sight. Please pray to God to continue to save my life. There are only 240 men remaining in our regiment. So no more. I shall write again soon if alive.
Dear father, please go personally or write a letter to Isaac Lewis, Pendra, Brecon and tell him that his son in law, Sgt. Chambers is killed. His son Thomas is alive but still in hospital with fever. He had a very narrow escape. He crept on his hands and knees and came from the hospital to the fort through all the firing. Please give my love to all, and write soon.
Your affectionate son.
D. Jenkins
P.S. I think we will go down to the colony to get re-fitted, as we have lost everything."


The letter posted by 1879 Graves. Helpmakkar March 11th 1879

Very good point impi. I'm more convince Jenkins was pulling a flanker!!!


PS I forgot to mention in my letter dated the 26th Jan, Three days after the Battle I was at Rorke's Drift!

By March the 11th He would have gathered enough information, to make the folks back home believe he was at RD. He may well have been at Rorke's Drift and like a lot who said they were, after the Battle!!!

Look it's all a load of nonsense. Leave him on the made up museum roll. He wasn't at RD and you have nothing to show he was.

Very good point impi. I'm even more convinced Jenkins was pulling a flanker!!!!
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 19, 2014 12:48 am

Chard.

The reason why there is over a thousand posts on the thread, is because of the doubters not listening, and not taking the time nor the trouble to read the evidence that has been posted time and again on the forum. The evidence is all there for the doubters to read, if they believe that he was not at RD, then it is really up to them to prove that he wasn't.
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 19, 2014 12:54 am

Lets not forget that, so far as the public is concerned, David Jenkins has been "Returned to Official Records" as a defender and quite right too. Four or five people on this site disagree, but that doesn't matter a jot. They are wasting their breath. Next Wednesday would be a good day on which to stop indulging them - the horse has bolted.

Steve
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 8 EmptySun Jan 19, 2014 1:19 am

Martin not quite right old chap? For 130 odd years Jenkins has not been on any of the rolls. It's for those who think he should be on the roll to confirm that. Saying his number is wrong is just not good enough. If it was that clean cut, Julian would have written just that, but he has undertaken extensive research to prove otherwise. Unfortunately there is still doubt as reflected in the recent posts. The paper artical really doesn't prove anything, other than Jenkins saying he was at Rorkes Drift. now weather we agree or not, Impi does have a point with the dates on the letters. 26th Jan Jenkins doesn't mention at all that he had taken part in the defence of Rorkes Drift, yet he does on the 11th March. If possible show me one letter from a defender that doesn't mention he was at Rorkes Drift if he was!

The other point raised is the accounts by Smith and Reynolds, there's are decrepacies in that those accounts can only be based on hear say.

The signature issue is another good point, some say the writing is from the same person others disagree, We have Springboks neigboure who is a professor, and has look at the two signatures and says there is a case to answer?  then we have Julian's policeman friend who states there not the same?  so it would be wrong to dismiss it.

Is it possible that James Jenkins made it to the outside, we know from Smith he was able to move, perhaps he did get outside, may have even give Chard the warning, who knows. But that sarnario has only came about since we found out George Smith said James Jenking was crawling through a loop hole. And let's me honest, we all thought James Jenkins was bed ridden, well according to Reynolds he was, unable to assists in his own esacape. So I'm afraid it has yet to be confirmed David Jenkins was at Rorkes Drift. Albeit with the wrong number!
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