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Film Zulu Dawn quote: “Excuse me, my Lord, there's something I must convey to you. I rode along the track down to Rorke's Drift. The sky above is red with fire. Your orders my Lord? Do we move to the drift?”
 
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» 1st Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment, 1875
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» Lt Chard and his sighting of Zulu enemy at Isandlwana
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» Rorkes drift Hotel
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» Information on Harry Boik Trooper 141 NATAL MOUNTED POLICE
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» Lieutenant Chards anxiety-inducing-notes-Battle-Rorkes-Drift
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» John Courtenay Chasman CHADWICK - 1st Class Interpreter
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» S/Sgts Appointments/Ranks
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» Punishment - FLOGGING
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» Isandlwana, Last Stands
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» HMS Active RMA and Kroomen duties
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» Henry William Longcast, Interpreter.
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» Officers of the 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment circa 1868
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» Famous death?
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» N/5 Battery RA at Isandlwana
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» The Pickets on Mkwene
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» Durnford's medical officer
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» Victorian HMS SHAH South Africa Zulu Wars Medal William Morrison Royal Navy
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» The 'other' fighting clerk - Corporal JH Mayor, N.N.C
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» Somerset soldiers killed at Isandhlwana
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» "The Wiltshire Regiment 1756-1914"
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» The Unknown Warrior Westminster Abbey
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» Lance Corporal Robert Eaton NMP
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» Lieutenant Anthony Kingscote, HMS Tenedos
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» Sir Robert Gordon Gilmour
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» William De Passey, 17th Lancers.1879.
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» Lieutenant Frederick Streatfield Pelly, RN
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» KEYNSHAMLIGHTHORSE GRAVES WEBSITE
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» Regimental numbers
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» Colour of Lord Chelsmford eyes
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» List of identified bodies at Isandlwana
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» Defenders of Rorkes Drift
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 Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records

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sas1

sas1

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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyWed Feb 26, 2014 8:45 pm

Ladies' I'm sure you can set aside my confusion? There appears to be Two David Jenkins, both reference to RD and both with the same service number? But two different regiments. Documents housed with the Royal Welsh.
I'm confused based on they must have the original documents for both David Jenkins?

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Page 24.

Source: http://royalwelsh.org.uk/downloads/zulu-catalogue/zulu-war-catalogue3.pdf
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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyWed Feb 26, 2014 9:06 pm

25th Brigade, 1st 24th! same man!.
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impi

impi

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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyWed Feb 26, 2014 10:03 pm

What does "admitted under order 225"
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Chard1879

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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyThu Feb 27, 2014 8:48 am

Haven't got a clue mate.  scratch 
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Frank Allewell

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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyThu Feb 27, 2014 8:57 am

impi
Where does that occur ?

Cheers
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Julian Whybra



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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyThu Feb 27, 2014 10:13 am

impi
AO225 as far as I'm aware relates to service admissible under army order 225. Between 1877 and 1878 Jenkins went awol a number of times and this relates to those periods admissible for receipt of army pay under that order. I.e. his pay was docked - officially.
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90th

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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Pte David Jenkins Forgotten survivor of RD    Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyMon Mar 03, 2014 11:02 am

Hi all .
Some may find the last couple of lines more interesting than the main story ! . From the RDVC Forum , hopefully common sense will prevail and no one will complain !

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90th
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Julian Whybra



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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyMon Mar 03, 2014 11:48 am

90th
Thanks for posting this. I was aware of it. By itself it is of course hearsay so I didn't include it as part of the 'case' for Jenkins. It is nevertheless an independent albeit unverifiable source.
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impi

impi

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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyMon Mar 03, 2014 11:53 am

Interesting artical. I think it is now widely accepted, that DJ was at RD, via JW publication. However in the artical in the link to RDVC. I don't beleive this sentence was included in the original artical. It seems out of place in (Highlighted in red.)

"SOUTH Wales DAILY POST CHRISTMAS EVE 1900

MEN FAMOUS, BUT UNKNOWN." A Welsh HERO OF Rorke's DRIFT. The January number of the "Windsor Magazine" includes, in an interesting article on "Men Famous but Unknown," the biography and portrait of John Williams, V.C., Cwmbran. Of him the writer observes "If you go to the nut and bolt works at Cwm- bran, South Wales, you may today see a middle-aged in an (none too strong in health, sometimes, from his exertions on that fearful January night) working as a common labourer in order to earn enough to buy him his daily bread. A man of fair complexion, he is hard-working. honest and respectable. When he is 'dressed-up,' there appears on his chest that little Maltese Cross, with its magic words, 'For Valour.' This is the man who saved the patients in the hospital at Rorke's Drift. This is the man who stayed behind in the burning place when surrounded by hordes of Zulus, looking in at the windows watching with savage joy) their fiendish work the man who refused to leave the charnel house whilst a single sick or wounded soldier was left in it; the man who, with the brave cook, defied the whole host of Zulus to inter that blazing building if they dared. This is the man who. at last, smashed through the thick wall and literally dragged the wounded soldiers after him, one by one, till he l ad dropped them all bodily into the yard just below where the brave Hitch was trying .to keep the savages at bay with his rifle-fire, so as to make a clear passage for the patients to cross into safety. And to-day this man has to earn a. scanty living as a common labourer, and to toil as best he can at such hard work as a nut and bolt factory affords if he wishes to have bread to eat." By the way, a comrade of Williams on that famous occasion was David Jenkins, now in the employ of the Swansea Corporation. Happy to be corrected!
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impi

impi

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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyMon Mar 03, 2014 11:57 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
impi
AO225 as far as I'm aware relates to service admissible under army order 225.  Between 1877 and 1878 Jenkins went awol a number of times and this relates to those periods admissible for receipt of army pay under that order.  I.e. his pay was docked - officially.

Julian, thanks sorry for late responce, only just seen this  Salute 
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Julian Whybra



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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyMon Mar 03, 2014 12:05 pm

impi
I can verify that the sentence is in the original newspaper report.
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impi

impi

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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyMon Mar 03, 2014 12:12 pm

Do you have a copy of the original artical!
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Julian Whybra



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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyMon Mar 03, 2014 12:39 pm

I do but it's viewable on-line in the newspaper archives (free).
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littlehand

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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyMon Mar 03, 2014 9:02 pm

Can you post a link Julian.  agree
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Kenny



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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyMon Mar 03, 2014 11:25 pm

Why not search yourself..................the National Library of Wales

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Last edited by Kenny on Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:50 pm; edited 2 times in total
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rusteze

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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyMon Mar 03, 2014 11:47 pm

Try this one.

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Steve
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littlehand

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Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 10:18 pm

Thanks for the link  Salute 

Herald of Wales.
17th April 1915
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 10:47 pm

Cambrian Daily Leader
16th March 1916 

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"BRAVE SONS OF A BRAVE SIRE. I Sapper T. Jenkins, Pte. Stanley Jenkins, Royal Engineers. 2nd Devons (killed) One of the heroes of Rorke's Drift was Lance-Corporal David Jenkins, 21th Welsh Regiment, of Waunwen-terra.ee. Swansea. His gallant character has been inherited by his six sons, all of whom have served with the colours during the present war, one losing his life. and two being wounded,. We give the photograph of the brave old soldier and his gallant boys. The six brothers belonged to the Bible class con- ducted by the Be v. R. J. Willoughby, at Pte. J. Jenkins, 9th Pte. Fred Jenkins, Welsh (wounded). 11th Devons. Tabernacle Baptist Chapel, Waunwen, Swansea, which has contributed about 100 1 members to the colours. Stanley, who was 24 years of age, was struck in the throat by a piece of shell at Ypres. As he was being carried off the field he saw I his brother Harry, with whom he fought l at Neauve Chapelle, and that was their last meeting. Harry was himself wounded and brought to an English hospital. John has also been wounded."
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyTue Mar 04, 2014 11:20 pm

So back in 1915 -16 it a was known David Jenkins was at RD. Thanks Littlehand.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyWed Mar 05, 2014 12:20 am

Thank you so much Julian.
it all came out in the wash!
top man.obviously..
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyWed Mar 05, 2014 6:57 am

impi wrote:
So back in 1915 -16 it was known David Jenkins was at RD. Thanks Littlehand.

Good post LH.

Totally agree Impi.  agree
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyWed Mar 05, 2014 10:17 am

Little Hand
Well done. I hadn't found either of these. As with the previous post, they aren't contemporary sources but they are excellent supplementary material indicating that Jenkins's being at RD was common local knowledge. Good man!
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyWed Mar 05, 2014 8:39 pm

Wasn't aware he was known as a Rorke's Drift defender back in 1916/17 Looks like JW was correct.
I'm just off to eat my hat!!!!
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyThu Mar 06, 2014 8:16 am

Chard
Where have you been? Read the previous posts. He was known as a defender from 1879!
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyThu Mar 06, 2014 8:58 pm

So it appears, but back then unconfirmed.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyFri Mar 07, 2014 8:23 am

Chard
You must remember that back then there was no confirmed or unconfirmed - in fact there was no thought of 'confirmation'. Back then there was no 'Chard' Roll. There was no Brecon Museum or NAM.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyThu May 08, 2014 10:34 pm

The death of Henry Hook which shows David Jenkins acknowledging he was at Rorke's Drift.

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Source: Cambrian 17th March 1905
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyThu May 08, 2014 10:58 pm

"I remember Hook well"

He was on the roof ? No he wasn't. Hook done his bit inside the hospital !  Suspect 

He wasn't wounded. ? Yes he was, he received a head wound, with affected him for years after !  Suspect 

Still as the article was written in 1905, his memory wasn't what is was!!  No
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyFri May 09, 2014 9:54 am

CTSG
Indeed, his memory was becoming faulty by that stage - in fact it's the right memories with the wrong person - he's confused Hook with Hitch!
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyFri May 09, 2014 10:43 am

Hitch was wounded far more severe than Hook  scratch 
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyFri May 09, 2014 12:33 pm

Precisely. He's confused the two men's actions and wounds. Comes with getting older.
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyFri May 09, 2014 6:42 pm

He shouldn't have said anything, it just casts doubt's on him being at RD.

So shouldn't we be looking for a defender that was on the roof, but wasn't wounded and died the same day as Henry Hook.

This is the only acknowledgement from Jenkins That I have seen where he himself says he was at RD, but gets his facts wrong  Neutral 
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptyFri May 09, 2014 10:03 pm

24th
Then you need to read more. Look at his third letter (contemporary) where he describes the events of RD.
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptySat May 10, 2014 8:34 am


Julian Whybra wrote:
Precisely. He's confused the two men's actions and wounds. Comes with getting older.

Julian this confusion you mention. Is this one of those "hindsight" things. Or do you have something that shows his memory was affected by age.



Julian Whybra wrote:
24th
Then you need to read more.  Look at his third letter (contemporary) where he describes the events of RD.

Events he could of heard from others, did quite get the names right Suspect 
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptySat May 10, 2014 10:07 am

Chard
Forgive me if I'm teaching grandmother to suck eggs. Jenkins in his lifetime never had to justify his story; he never had to worry that someone would correct him if he made an unguarded or erroneous comment about RD. On the other hand he never went out of his way to make any comment at all. It is obvious from all the documentation and contemporary reports that he was accepted as an RD survivor and was recognized by other RD survivors as having been present. On the other hand he never took advantage of his potential fame, and really the historical snapshots of him emanate from letters, public occasions when his name was mentioned, and as he got older, obituaries of other defenders - and these had to be 'dug out' - they weren't easy to find or were readily available. Like all the RD defenders, he never sought the limelight.
The whole 'modern' Jenkins episode, begun a couple of years or so ago, is rather sad to look back on. So, no, I don't have any hard evidence to say his memory was going. What I can say is that this obituary contains the last public statement made before Jenkins himself died and that both Hook and Hitch were from a different battalion and Jenkins would barely have known them. Separated from them soon after the action, Jenkins would only have become aware of Hook's fame from his VC action some time afterwards. It is not surprising that in old age, trying to recall the events of long ago, he became confused.
Forum members might like to look at remarks made by other Isandhlwana and RD participants in old age and compare precise details with comments made at the time. You'll find the same sort of minor discrepancies.
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptySat May 10, 2014 1:11 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
I don't have any hard evidence

Ah!! Well old friend, there lays the problem. Perhaps people only accept his presence at Rorkes Drift because you say so! Based on speculation, hearsay, and hinesight. You seem to know Jenkins so well, yet no real evidence to argue your case.  Suspect 
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptySat May 10, 2014 2:57 pm

Are you drunk?
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Julian Whybra



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Chard alias Rip van Winkle
I think you must have been asleep for the last four months, old friend.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptySat May 10, 2014 4:54 pm

Its a wind up.  Suspect 
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springy
I hope so. People are entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts.
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptySat May 10, 2014 9:20 pm

Not drunk, not a wind up. Jenkins speaks and gets it wrong pure and simple? End off. And yes people are entilted to their opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptySat May 10, 2014 10:58 pm

Hiya chard, my comment was idle speculation,
not a definitive diagnosis, just tongue in cheek,
no offence meant.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptySun May 11, 2014 7:51 am

End off??!?
Not drunk, not a wind up. Chard1879 speaks and gets it wrong pure and simple.  End of.
And you're not an old man and writing 30 years after the event...
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptySun May 11, 2014 10:27 am

"I remember him well", is a bold statement to make even 30 years after the event, and then getting the details wrong.  scratch 
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptySun May 11, 2014 10:49 am

Mr Greaves
You are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to the facts. And the facts are these:

This is a summary of all the new evidence relating to Jenkins’s presence at Rorke’s Drift. It is based on the assumption that the reader knows what a primary source is (these are marked PS) and what isn’t. Please criticize my research. Find fault with it. I'd be happy to have anything corrected but you will need to provide the sources for proving any discrepancies in the evidence to be taken seriously. Any criticisms directed at me personally I shall not respond to.

1. Chard’s Official Report published in the Natal press on 8th February and in the Government’s Blue Books the following month was compiled 25th January-3rd February 1879. It states there were 8 (unnamed) surviving and 3 kia 1/24th RD defenders, 11 in total. No roll was included of participants. The Natal Mercury 7.4.79 published the ‘Smith’ Roll which names Jenkins as one of the eight surviving 1/24th defenders [PS]. The Times 10.6.79 reports the return home on 9th June of time-expired 2/24th men, including several RD men, one of whom, Waters, furnishes “the complete roll of officers, non-commissioned officers, and men who were present at the defence of Rorke’s Drift on the 22nd January.” The ‘Waters’ Roll names Jenkins as one of the eight surviving 1/24th defenders [PS]. At the unveiling of de Neuville’s painting of RD at the Fine Art Society Galleries 11.3.80 a Catalogue is published containing a complete roll of defenders – the ‘Fine Art’ Roll - which names Jenkins as one of the eight surviving 1/24th defenders [PS]. Records of the 1/24th datable from 7th June 1881 to 16th August 1882 in the hand of the then adjutant include a list of 1/24th participants at RD and names Pte. D. Jenkins as one of them [PS]. Finally at the 1929 50th anniversary commemoration Cantwell’s ‘Chard’ Roll appears (i.e. the one that now hangs in the regimental museum) and was subsequently published in Atkinson’s Regimental History. Jenkins is named as one of the eight surviving 1/24th soldiers [PS].
All the above are independently verifiable, cross-refer and corroborate one another in stating that David Jenkins was an RD defender.

2. The Western Mail 6.3.79 and 21.3.79; Merthyr Express 22.3.79; Y Gwladarwr 28.3.79; Brecon County Times 26.4.79 contain Jenkins’s three letters from Zululand 18.1.79, 28.1.79, 11.3.79: taken together they describe his progress from Natal to Isandhlwana and back again with the escort party and explain how he ended up at RD [4 x PS]. The third of these contains a number of statements that can be cross-referenced and independently-verified against other primary source documents. The Times 3.10.79 and, separately, The Hampshire Advertiser County Newspaper 4.10.79 report the arrival in England of troops from the AZW, including Jenkins & other RD defenders. Chard, Reynolds & others are singled as is a party of 1/24th men whose exploits are described – namely a prisoner escort party (which consists of Sergt Wilson, Roy, Jenkins, Desmond and Payton, i.e. other known defenders of RD). They are introduced with other defenders as such to royalty (i.e. in the presence of Chard, etc.) [2 x PS] The Aldershot Military Gazette 11.10.79 reports on how members of the regiment are presented to royalty including Fitzmaurice (Ulundi), Wilson (Isandhlwana) and four RD survivors from the 1/24th including David Jenkins who are feted [PS].
All the above are independently verifiable, cross-refer and corroborate one another in stating that David Jenkins was an RD defender.

3. The Monmouthshire Merlin and South Wales Advertiser 5.12.79 reports that Lady Butler was painting a picture of RD and that only RD defenders were being used to pose as models. One of the sketches produced bears a label in Lady Butler’s own hand saying ‘Jenkins’ [PS]. The South Wales Daily Post 17.7.1900 publishes Lady Butler’s letter to Jenkins referring to him as an RD defender and thanking him for posing [PS]. The South Wales Daily Post 20.7.1904 and, separately, the Swansea and Glamorgan Herald of Wales 23.7.1904 report on a visit by the king to south Wales and reports how Jenkins is introduced to the king by Lady Butler’s husband as an RD defender. The posing for the picture is mentioned [2 x PS].
All the above are independently verifiable, cross-refer and corroborate one another in stating that David Jenkins was an RD defender and, as such, posed for Lady Butler’s painting.

4. Chard’s Account of RD for Queen Victoria 21.2.80 mentioned Jenkins’s role in the defence twice in separate incidents: first his behaviour and conduct under fire is commended; secondly for saving Chard’s life with a shouted warning [2 x PS]. These are not to be confused with those anecdotes of the other Jenkins kia. The chronological nature of the report precludes any confusion between the two men as Jenkins the survivor is mentioned in the latter stage of the battle post 6 p.m. AFTER Jenkins kia has been killed in the hospital pre-6 p.m..
These corroborate that David Jenkins was an RD defender.

All the above EIGHTEEN PRIMARY SOURCES are independently verifiable, cross-refer and corroborate one another.

This is without mentioning the RD Bible and four other occasions where Jenkins is mentioned as an RD survivor.

QED
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptySun May 11, 2014 12:05 pm

There is no way you can suggest you know the approximate time James Jenkins was killed in the hospital.

The fact that Jenkins was asked to model for Butler is neither here or there. We know David Jenkins was in the 24th regiment and in South Africa, and had been awarded a campaign medal.

None of the rolls contain the name David Jenkins. They just say Jenkings.

Reynolds says there was a Jenkins Killed in the hospital, to I'll with fever assist in saving himself. then we have Smith saying, Jenkins was killed while trying to escape through a hole. He was either to I'll to move or he wasn't.

The most likly story is, is that Jenkings was with G company at Helpmaarker, and his duties were escorting prisoners back to Petermatrizburg.

Newspaper articals, should be used with caution. Based on Julian poo,pooing them so many times in the past, and they can't be taken as primary source.

As Julian as said, he has no hard evidence to show David Jenkins memory was failing?  
The artical posted by LH is the only one I have seen, that shows Jenkins saying he was at RD. albeit giving wrong information.
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John
You are wrong.  I don't say so.  The facts do.  Read them.  Look at the Rolls!!!  Your opinion is worthless if you have not read the evidence.

Chard and John
Jenkins's death certificate states he died of hemiplegia - slow, progressive (over several years), and painful paralysis - physical and mental - including confusion, memory loss, and gradual abnormal mental development, lack of concentration/comprehension. There's your hard evidence.
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PostSubject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records   Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records - Page 12 EmptySun May 11, 2014 3:13 pm

John

It is not clear from your responses why you strongly feel that Pte David Jenkins was not at Rorke's Drift on 22/23 January 1879?

The 'fog of war' always gives rise to discrepancies - we would like the facts to be recorded accurately but that never happens.  Norman Holme identified two soldiers named Jenkins at RD but could not on the basis of the documents he had access to at the time resolve the query. He decided that there was only one Jenkins at RD (he lists 10 men from 1/24th and not 11 men).  This was clearly an oversight, but understandable. Norman's ground breaking research - designed for medal collectors - of course has become a definitive source of reference. Today more records are available from which we can refine our views.

Julian Whybra is a well respected researcher on AZW - I must say the best there is - he has produced a balanced and well argued case for David Jenkins being present at RD.  

What the few modern day doubters ignore is the overwhelming fact that David Jenkins was a local Brecon lad - prior to his move to Swansea in later life - if his presence at RD was not true - he would have been decried in the local press, by his comrades at the Regimental Depot and from the Brecon roof tops.


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xhosa
This NAM entry is simply reproduced from a 1999 book by two art historians which itself relied on a much earlier work in 1970 by another art historian.


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