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 The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?.

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lionshead
90th
free1954
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The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. Empty
PostSubject: The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?.   The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. EmptyWed Jan 15, 2014 12:43 pm

Can the private ownership ( excluding family ) of 162 Victoria
Cross's ever be justified, i am of course talking talking about
Michael Ashcroft. any view's on this?. 1 believe he bought his
first Cross aged 12 which fulfilled a long time wish. he then
decided he wanted all he could get his hands on, i feel the
rightful place for them was in the various regimental museum's,
and in 2008 it was announced that his collection would form the
main part of a permanent display at the IWM. in of course ' the
lord ashcroft wing ', thereby guaranteeing a sort of immortality
with his name forever being associated with our nations most
revered decoration.. then you consider his business career and
how he was elevated to the peerage in the first place. does not
sit quite right with me! i am expressing a personal opinion.
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free1954




Posts : 179
Join date : 2012-02-16
Location : northeast usa

The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?.   The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. EmptyWed Jan 15, 2014 1:26 pm

they may be in his possession, but they will forever belong to those who's bravery won them.
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90th

90th


Posts : 10603
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. Empty
PostSubject: The Victoria Cross ... What price courage   The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. EmptyWed Jan 15, 2014 2:19 pm

Hi free1954.
All medal owners are mere custodians of the Medals in their collections , you can never technically own them , it does sound a little strange I suppose coming from me as I do have a few of them , in time , they , the Custodians will depart , and another will step forward to become the custodian. A little morbid that post became ! LOL  Rolling Eyes . I assume you understand what I'm attempting to say ? , 1.17 am time to hit the hay but it's still hot in the 30's even now  Shocked .
90th  Shocked 

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lionshead




Posts : 46
Join date : 2013-01-06

The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?.   The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. EmptyWed Jan 15, 2014 3:36 pm

Politics and personal opinions to one side, where would we ever get to see such a wonderful collection of courage! I do collect medals and i am only a custodian of them, like 90th says "someone else will take over" Anyone know  many  12 year olds who brought their first V.C. at that tender age.
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The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?.   The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. EmptyWed Jan 15, 2014 6:46 pm

Anybody know of any 12 year old with the
money and connections to do that..no! i
have no problem with any medal collectors
as 90th rightly says we are all just temporary
custodians, which is true, however, i have
followed ashcrofts moves over the year's and
always thought him greedy!! than i heard he
has donated 5 million pounds to the IWM and
the wing which will bring all these medals to-
gether will be none other than the lord ashcroft
wing. 5 million you could not get a second rate
footballer for that..so what does he get. a wing
at our premier war museum in perpetuity! and as
the years roll on and were all dust he will have
achieved some kind of quasi immortality, and
remember he bought them, he never earned one.
its not about politic's as such its about a mans
ego. what price all that courage, well we know..
its 5 million quid. just under the entire cost of
the AZW! it makes you think. well it did me!.
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kopie




Posts : 249
Join date : 2013-06-01

The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?.   The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. EmptyWed Jan 15, 2014 7:30 pm

Hi Xhosa
Ashcroft was not 12 when he bought his first VC.
He bought the Magennis VC, x-craft action I believe, but he was over the age of consent when he did so.
The medal will always belong, and were won by the man (or woman) whose name is stamped on it, though no woman has yet won a VC.
I have mixed feelings also. Yes Ashcroft is the legal guardian of these VCs, I am sure he would not claim any different. At least he has put them on public display; many are in private collections that will never see the light of day.
The SWB museum in Brecon has all the RD VCs barring that to Robert Jones - this one being in the Ashcroft collection. Perhaps Ashcroft will bequeth this one to the SWB after his day, but on the other hand, if it is in the UK and public display, why should he? There are countless stories of museums paying men of their regiments who had hit hard times a pittance for their VCs. There is an ancestor of mine who was so  poor he pawned his VC. The museum of his regiment offered him NO financial help or practical help whatsoever, but they bought his VC from the pawn broker for pennies, where it remains in the museum to this day. I have had the honour of holding it, with gloves on, once.
But I do feel uncomfortable at someone, like Ashcroft as good a man as he appears to be "owning" a VC.
In the USA of course, it is illegal to buy or sell their highest honour, THE MEDAL OF HONOUR,  under the Stolen Gallantry Act.
I like that! Think about the name of the act for a minute - "Stolen Gallantry."
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The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?.   The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. EmptyWed Jan 15, 2014 7:47 pm

yes kopie, i'm all over it! stolen gallantry act.
i'm on about a legacy not earned!
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impi

impi


Posts : 2308
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Age : 42

The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?.   The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. EmptyWed Jan 15, 2014 10:06 pm

"In July 2008, Ashcroft announced a donation of £5 million for a permanent gallery at the Imperial War Museum, where the 50 Victoria Crosses held by the museum will be put on display alongside his own collection of 162 VCs"

Now that's good ain't it  agree 
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The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?.   The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. EmptyWed Jan 15, 2014 11:52 pm

impi  Wink   Salute 
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SergioD

SergioD


Posts : 401
Join date : 2012-03-27
Age : 60
Location : London/Herts

The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?.   The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. EmptyThu Jan 16, 2014 10:11 am

Great debate Xhosa and touches on a couple of key issues. I am a medal collector and have been for many years now. Infact it was my medal collecting that led me to the AZW which has become as I suspect for many members a passion for me.

As a medal collector I agree with 90th on being a custodian- but we are more than that - I think we also keep the memory and deeds of the respective soldiers alive- through research, publications, shows , discussions. On top of that I have reunited broken groups and in one emotional instance returned a group to the Family. In the early years of collecting - most collectors had similar views - with the onset of the internet - values have soared and there are more and more investors (rather than collectors) in the market. I do worry that we are pricing the next generation of custodians out of the "hobby".

I have tracked Ashcrofts purcases with interest over the years and also his alledged (I repeat alledged) speed to litigate - so I word my next sentence carefully - he has been relentless in his pursuit of VC's , has driven the prices up astranomically ( dragging most other medal prices with it) and has entered into agreements with living VC recepients to acquire their VC's after their death. He has single handedly pushed the chance of owning a VC beyond the reach of 99% of collectors which is a shame.

I agree that the wing allows the public to see these medals - but I also feel this is more about personal legacy than anything else. The regimental museums do a great job and to my mind it is where the VC's belong if they are going on public display.

I recently spent a few hours at the RGJ museum whilst my youngest son was interviewing with the regiment. It has a fine collection of medal- including Northey's and Buller's groups. Well worth a visit.

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The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?.   The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. EmptyThu Jan 16, 2014 2:02 pm

"As a medal collector I agree with 90th on being a custodian- but we are more than that - I think we also keep the memory and deeds of the respective soldiers alive- through research, publications, shows , discussions. On top of that I have reunited broken groups and in one emotional instance returned a group to the Family. In the early years of collecting - most collectors had similar views - with the onset of the internet - values have soared and there are more and more investors (rather than collectors) in the market. I do worry that we are pricing the next generation of custodians out of the "hobby".

I have tracked Ashcrofts purcases with interest over the years and also his alledged (I repeat alledged) speed to litigate - so I word my next sentence carefully - he has been relentless in his pursuit of VC's , has driven the prices up astranomically ( dragging most other medal prices with it) and has entered into agreements with living VC recepients to acquire their VC's after their death. He has single handedly pushed the chance of owning a VC beyond the reach of 99% of collectors which is a shame.

I agree that the wing allows the public to see these medals - but I also feel this is more about personal legacy than anything else. The regimental museums do a great job and to my mind it is where the VC's belong if they are going on public display.

sergio  well done your boy, you must be so very proud  Salute  i agree with all that
you say!you got my meaning,exact! legacy! i am not afraid of any possible litigation, i'm
sure he would not welcome comments such as mine, i do of course stand by every word,
being my opinion i felt free to express it on this occasion..i to have been keeping tabs on
him for years, does not sit right with me. but my opinion is now ' out there ' so that will
do me!. cheers mate Les


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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper


Posts : 2522
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?.   The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. EmptyThu Jan 16, 2014 4:37 pm

One good thing about Lord Ashcroft collecting V.C's, is that it ensures that British V.C's do at least stay in Britain, it's just a pity that some Englishmens V.C's are not in England, where they and the old regiment rightly belong.
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PostSubject: Re: The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?.   The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. EmptyThu Jan 16, 2014 10:02 pm

agree 
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kopie




Posts : 249
Join date : 2013-06-01

The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. Empty
PostSubject: Re: The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?.   The Victoria Cross..what price Courage?. EmptyFri Jan 17, 2014 6:36 pm

Mr M. Cooper wrote:
One good thing about Lord Ashcroft collecting V.C's, is that it ensures that British V.C's do at least stay in Britain, it's just a pity that some Englishmens V.C's are not in England, where they and the old regiment rightly belong.

 scratch 
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