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 AZW books to avoid

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Arthur Wright
rusteze
ymob
Martini-Henry
littlehand
Tenedos
aussie inkosi
John
Chard1879
runner2
Mr M. Cooper
Frank Allewell
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
waterloo50
18 posters
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waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

AZW books to avoid Empty
PostSubject: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyMon Jun 08, 2015 1:28 pm

This may have already been discussed before but I am just about to spend some of my hard earned cash on updating my AZW book collection. I'm still in the early stages of learning about the AZW and I'm worried that I may be spending my time reading books that are inaccurate. I have no wish to offend any authors whom I'm sure work hard to produce their work but some books are better than others. Are there any books out there that should be avoided? I have followed a recommended list of books from this forum but every now and then its nice to find a good book on my own.

I also understand that it may not be appropriate to name and shame so if Admin would like me to rephrase my question that's okay.

Kind regards

Waterloo52
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyTue Jun 09, 2015 8:14 pm

Waterloo disregard anything written or published by Fanny Colenso, and Edward Durnford. Absolute lies.
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waterloo50

waterloo50


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyTue Jun 09, 2015 8:52 pm

Hi Chelmsfordthescapegoat,

I suspect that these two individuals may be a bit bias. having said that one book review described their work


'The Zulu War-by possibly its most authentic historians
Most written histories intend to be accurate, but they often suffer from the bias of perspective, and whilst this history of the Anglo-Zulu War is no exception, it is exceptional in that it is decidedly not a view of the conflict from an Imperial British standpoint. Francis Colenso was the daughter of Bishop Colenso, whose Bishopric included Zululand at the time of the war. She knew the Zulu nation well, had an affection for it and in company with her father was an ardent advocate in its cause. She was well aware of the many shameful calumnies perpetrated against it by the British including the bringing about of the war of 1879 itself. This history, written by an author who was on the spot, was originally published very shortly after the events themselves took place. It provides a very different view, far removed from a story of Imperial glory or folly. Ultimately the traditional Zulu way of life was destroyed by the war and the injustice and tragedy of that is painfully elaborated in these pages. 'Fanny' Colenso had a close personal relationship with Colonel Anthony Durnford, who fell at Isandlwhana and who became one of Lord Chelmsford's scapegoats for the disaster. For the military aspects of her history she called upon the assistance of Durnford's brother, Edward-also a soldier-to provide vital expertise, credibility, accuracy and authority. This is the first and possibly the most important history of the Zulu War and the events that bought it about and is an essential component of any library of the history of South Africa.'


Many thanks for the advice....now I'm just going to have to read the thing.

Kind regards

Waterloo
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyTue Jun 09, 2015 9:18 pm

The two authors were Lovers & Brothers. Bias as you say! If you read that book, your start thinking the good lord Chelmsford was to blame. Of course that's just my opinion.

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyTue Jun 09, 2015 9:33 pm

CTSG
Bugger ! Didn't see that coming.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyTue Jun 09, 2015 9:38 pm

You did!!! Very Happy I bet you have the whole familey sitting up waiting for my post... And quoted it word for word before I posted it , you can read me like You need to study mo
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper


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AZW books to avoid Empty
PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyThu Jun 11, 2015 4:13 pm

Some of the best factual books for you to read are by well known authors, ie, Ian Knight, F.W.D Jackson, Julian Whybra, Kris Wheatley, Ron Lock and Peter Quantrill, Frank Emery, etc.

I would steer clear of some of the books that were written before many of the facts were fully known through lack of research, or those that have a biased viewpoint. Donald Morris did his best, however,  he got many things wrong. Mike Snook has a very biased view of events, so his opinions are a bit one sided, some of Adrian Greaves work is also questionable. Also try to avoid books written by any welsh authors, who will obviously carry on with the myth created by Baker's welsh hoax film, that the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment was a welsh regiment when it wasn't.

It is good to read books from all camps and compare them for real historic facts, and then make up your own mind as to who you believe, however, if you prefer to read the factual books, then the authors in my first selection are the ones to read.

One of the best books to read about the battle of iSandlwana is The Hill of the Sphinx by F.W.D Jackson, a real must have book about this battle.
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waterloo50

waterloo50


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyThu Jun 11, 2015 5:36 pm

Mr M Cooper

Many thanks for your post, very helpful indeed, just the kind of information that I need. I will certainly be following your advice.

Many Thanks

Waterloo50
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runner2




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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyThu Jun 11, 2015 6:18 pm

Deleted. Comments like that could bring a lot of trouble your way.

Constructive comments only.
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waterloo50

waterloo50


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyThu Jun 11, 2015 9:58 pm

Well, after a little bit of searching I managed to find a second hand copy of 'Hill of the Sphinx by F.W.D Jackson'  it cost me £24 with postage, but its seems well worth it judging by the reviews I have read.
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Chard1879

Chard1879


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyThu Jun 11, 2015 10:17 pm

That's a good book to start with Okay for beginner's. Look for books by Ian Knight. The most leading authority on the Anglo Zulu War. Then head for Q&L I would highly recommend Zulu Victory.
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waterloo50

waterloo50


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyThu Jun 11, 2015 10:39 pm

Yep will do, I have read a couple of books by Ian Knight, the last book I read of his was 'Zulu Rising', that was a big read. I have just started reading Zulu: The Heroism and Tragedy of the Zulu War of 1879. As you can see I've got lots to be getting on with....at what point do I stop being a beginner. Maybe Admin should come up with some kind of online exam paper, we could be awarded points and rank based on our results, in fact, I would be more than happy to have a crack at something like that, I bet others would to. Come on Admin put pen to paper and test me. Bring it on.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 12, 2015 1:19 am

Waterloo50.

There is no actual limit to learning things about the AZW, there is always something new that crops up from time to time that can be discussed on the forum. And there is always the chance that some well established researcher digs out some hitherto unknown facts or old forgotten letters from the past that throw some light on the various aspects. So although there might appear to be some very clued up folk on here, we are all actually still learning, in other words, we are all beginners that have gained knowledge by reading various books and by sharing our knowledge and discussing the various issues with each other. Yes, there are some disagreements, but Pete (admin) always brings us back down to earth if it gets too heated. You will find that most members on here are a great bunch of lads (and lasses), and are always willing to help with anything you are stuck with. In time you will be just as clued up as most of the members on here, and you will be able to join in with many of the topics and share your views with the rest of us. Enjoy your time on the forum.
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John

John


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 12, 2015 8:25 am

Try this,

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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waterloo50

waterloo50


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 12, 2015 3:14 pm

I only managed to get 9 out of 15...sob sob
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aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyTue Jun 16, 2015 2:23 am

i got 14 out of 15 missing out on question 7 silly mistake
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Tenedos

Tenedos


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyTue Jun 16, 2015 10:09 am

The only book I read on the AZW which I would advise readers to avoid is "Like Lions They Fought" by Edgerton.

I read it when it was first published in the late 80's (I think) and it was he only one of my books on the AZW which went to the charity shop.

I may have missed something and others may feel differently about the book.
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waterloo50

waterloo50


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyTue Jun 16, 2015 10:16 pm

Tenedos,

I'm sure that 'Like lions they Fought' has been mentioned before, I think that that one will go on my avoid list.

Regards

Waterloo.
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littlehand

littlehand


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyTue Jun 16, 2015 11:50 pm

Waterloo! Don't avoid any! You will learn from everyone. agree

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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waterloo50

waterloo50


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyWed Jun 17, 2015 2:19 pm

Littlehand,

I think that you made a very valid comment.

Cheers

Waterloo
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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 1:26 pm

Hi, I've just bought Prof Saul David's book to ease myself into this fascinating subject. Would others agree with my choice?
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ymob

ymob


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 2:01 pm

Hi,
it's a book with many mistakes...
Do you search a book on the "zulu war", or a book on a specific subject as Isandhlwana, Rorke's Drift....?
Cheers
Frédéric
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 2:18 pm

I agree with Frederic, there are many mistakes in Saul David's book.

I would recommend Ian Knight's Zulu Rising for a good all round description of the AZW, also Hill of the Sphinx by FWD Jackson for a great book about the battle of iSandlwana.

Enjoy your time on the forum. agree

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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 2:23 pm

I have Zulu rising it is the thorny question of what to read first. I have the Washing of the Spears which tho' dated I thought was really good. I am interested in all aspects particularly tho' Isandlwana as had a relative killed in that battle.
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 2:47 pm

Poor Donald Morris, he did his best, but he got a lot of things wrong.

If you want a good book about iSandlwana, then look for the Hill of the Sphinx by Jackson, a very good and must have book.

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ymob

ymob


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 2:48 pm

Martini-Henry wrote:
I have Zulu rising it is the thorny question of what to read first. I have the Washing of the Spears which tho' dated I thought was really good. I am interested in all aspects particularly tho' Isandlwana as had a relative killed in that battle.

I am agree with Martin (for books on the battle of Isandhlwana).
For a "discovery" of the battle: "Zulu Rising" and "Hill of the Sprinx".
After, for the blame and the cover up, "Zulu Victory" by Ron Lock and Peter Quantrill.
For a new approach of the battle: Mike Snook "How can men died better".
For a zulu perspective, John Laband's books

For journals (or books) specialised:
Julian Whybra: "studies on the zulu war "vol. 1 et 2 and "England's sons". (Brecon museum)
Keith I. Smith: "Everything was dead"
John Young:journals / historical research society (on e-bay/ cd discs)

Mr Whybra and YOUNG are members of this forum.

It's just an humble opinion, nothing else.

Cheers

Frédéric



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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 2:54 pm

Frederic you have been most helpful. Thank you for the assist to a total "newbie" to this fascinating conflict.
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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 3:01 pm

Ps any idea where I can buy a copy of "Hill of the Sphinx?" Have checked Amazon with no luck
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ymob

ymob


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 3:04 pm

I am not necessary agree with all the authors. Wink
But their point of view is interesting to make your own opinion.
-about Chelmsford, Pulleine, Durnford for the blame of the disaster;
-about the strategy of the Zulus the 22th January (read for example the essay "the missing five hours" by Lock and Quantrill / you can find it on the rorke's drift forum with anothers essays by Keith I. Smith / see the section "pot pourri")
Cheers
Frédéric

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ymob

ymob


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 3:05 pm

Martini-Henry wrote:
Ps any idea where I can buy a copy of "Hill of the Sphinx?" Have checked Amazon with no luck

You can purchase a copy at the Brecon Museum ("on line") with the Whybra's essays and booklet.
Cheers.
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ymob

ymob


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 3:16 pm

Sorry, the essay "the missing five hours" is not in the section "pot pourri".
Try this link: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Cheers
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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 3:18 pm

Very many thanks
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ymob

ymob


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 3:27 pm

Frank ALLEWELL, our "Springbok", an eminent member of this forum wrote some very relevant essays.
Unfortunately you can't find them in the section "zulu war publications and reviews" No
Cheers
Frédéric
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aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 3:39 pm

I am surprised no one mentioned John Laband all of his books a very good
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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 3:42 pm

At the risk of upsetting anyone, as I am utterly new to this, may I ask for a few examples of the mistakes in Prof David's book? I am genuinely keen to know
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ymob

ymob


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 3:48 pm

Bonjour,
Aussie Inkosi,
You are wrong, see my post of today (3h48PM).

Cheers

frédéric

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ymob

ymob


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 3:51 pm

Martini-Henry wrote:
At the risk of upsetting anyone, as I am utterly new to this, may I ask for a few examples of the mistakes in Prof David's book? I am genuinely keen to know

From memory, there is many examples of the mistakes on this book on the Rorke's Drift forum (new forum or old forum?)
Cheers
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 3:56 pm

It looks like the Brecon museum may have run out of copies of Hill of the Sphinx as the book is no longer listed on their website (might be worth asking though). The book is becoming very scarce indeed as the print run was only 1000 copies back in 2002. I cannot even find any secondhand copies advertised.

Brecon do seem to have some copies of Jackson's earlier and shorter work "Isandhlwana 1879 The Sources Re-examined" (upon which Hill of the Sphinx is based) so that could be worth grabbing, it is very reasonably priced.

Steve
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 6:52 pm

M-H.

Have you tried eBay, you may be lucky and get a copy of Hill of the Sphinx on there, keep looking as there are always fresh listings being added daily by various sellers. There is another site called AbeBooks, you may also find a copy on there, but search for the best offers.

Good luck.
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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 7:48 pm

Thanks Mr Cooper. I've checked EBay, I'll definitely check out any leads on the book. If you have any other recommendations please let me know.
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptyFri Jun 19, 2015 8:42 pm

M-H.

Yes, it seems that Hill of the Sphinx is becoming hard to find these days. I was lucky about 3 years ago, I found a cheap one on ebay in good condition for around a tenner.

Just a few days ago I recommended the book to another new member, he was kucky, he got one, however, it was about £24, so it has gone up in price quite a bit. But just keep checking ebay and abe books, you may just drop lucky. There are other sites that deal with hard to find books, but beware of their prices, your best bet is ebay and abe books, or someone on here might just have a copy they might wish to sell, check out the Buy-sell-swap-loan-forum on the home page, you never know, you might just get lucky.

Martin.
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptySun Jun 21, 2015 12:47 pm

I found my copy of 'Hill of the Sphinx' on Abe Books'. Its a helpful book that will give the reader a good overview on the subject. Highly recommend it.

Cheers

Waterloo
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waterloo50

waterloo50


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptySun Jun 21, 2015 5:15 pm

Hi,

Can anyone comment on the book, 'NARRATIVE OF THE FIELD OPERATIONS CONNECTED WITH THE ZULU WAR 1879 REISSUE 1989', I am thinking of buying it.

Many thanks

Waterloo
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptySun Jun 21, 2015 5:57 pm

It is the official history of the war and, as such, I think it is a basic for any AZW book collection. First published by the War Office in 1881 and again in 1907 , it does not have the benefit of more recent research but you would not expect that. It has the original maps and plans and so is a vital starting point for many of the discussions on the forum. There have been two modern reprints, the one you are asking about and a more recent softback edition from Naval and Military Press. The text is the same in both, but in my view, the maps are much better in the N&M paperback. Both are readily available at a low price. An 1881/1907 edition will set you back £800 and upwards.

Steve
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waterloo50

waterloo50


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptySun Jun 21, 2015 6:13 pm

Thanks Steve,

£800 is a bit steep for me but I'm sure its worth it.
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Arthur Wright




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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptySat Nov 07, 2015 1:20 pm

waterloo50 wrote:
This may have already been discussed before but I am just about to spend some of my hard earned cash on updating my AZW book collection. I'm still in the early stages of learning about the AZW and I'm worried that I may be spending my time reading books that are inaccurate. I have no wish to offend any authors whom I'm sure work hard to produce their work but some books are better than others. Are there any books out there that should be avoided? I have followed a recommended list of books from this forum but every now and then its nice to find a good book on my own.

I also understand that it may not be appropriate to name and shame so if Admin would like me to rephrase my question that's okay.

Kind regards

Waterloo52

Answering the question from the opposite end, I can, personally, recommend any writings by Ron Lock as I have personally seen the depths of his research and can vouch for the accuracy of his works and their accuracy. This would extend to works that he has co-authored with Mr. Peter Quantrill. I am currently reading "Zulu Victory" and find it an excellent read.

I have often found myself having to stop and verify claims and statements made by folk and unfortunately am not persuaded to accept things merely on the basis of the reputation of the person or persons making the claims or statements.

I am in much the same boat with regards being new to these matters and share similar concerns with regards investing wisely.

In summary, anything either by or co-authored by Ron Lock, I highly recommend. There is also an overview or Thesis on the missing five hours which you can find here. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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waterloo50

waterloo50


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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptySat Nov 07, 2015 2:54 pm

Hello Arthur,

The general consensus appears to be that Lock and Quantrill are excellent, they most certainly, thoroughly research their subject. I also think that anything written by Ian Knight is a must have. I have read TMFH and if you take a look at some of the threads on here you will see that TMFH has sparked some very interesting debates. I was also very lucky in that I managed to get a copy of Hill of The Sphinx, an excellent resource if you can get hold of a copy. I agree with you on not accepting things based on reputation, take Saul David for example an excellent author and historian but he often makes the odd mistake. As you are probably aware there are some very knowledgeable people here on the forum, they are normally very good at answering any questions that you may have. Also there are a number of experts on the forum with regards to things like weapons, tactics and the general history of the AZW. This site is an excellent resource for anything AZW.

Kind Regards
Waterloo50
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Arthur Wright




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AZW books to avoid Empty
PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptySat Nov 07, 2015 6:39 pm

waterloo50, Many thanks for your reply and advice. And thank you also for your comments, you are too kind. I am very still very ignorant on all matters AZW and am trying to learn slowly as time and memory allow.
Yes, I have noticed that the TMFH article caused a bit of a stir as it seems to have been a little at odds with conventionally held thinking.
I believe that the article "The Ammunition Controversy" which is Appendix C in "Zulu Victory" had a similar effect.
I still have much to read and even more to learn and glean all the help and support I am able to from this site. So very glad I came across it as the comments, remarks and suggestions are as you say, often from very knowledgable contributors.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptySat Nov 07, 2015 7:58 pm

Arthur
If you see Kieth Smiths Zulu War Source documents then grab it no matter what the price. In addition Julian Whybras papers are available from the RRW. These are really usefull as they all are related to source documentation. L and Q tend to take a few liberties at times, as do most of the authors.
There are a number of source documents available in the forum. I shall over the coming few months be publishing on the forum in that section quite a few of my own source document collection so you can read them in the original format.
You do the right thing by researching source documents, its what everything written springs from, sometimes wrongly.
Regards
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Arthur Wright




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PostSubject: Re: AZW books to avoid   AZW books to avoid EmptySat Nov 07, 2015 9:25 pm

Mr. Allewell, Many thanks for your kind words, advice and encouragement. I shall eagerly await anything you are able to share. May I ask what the RRW is so I can have a look to see if I can find something there? Sorry for my ignorance.
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