WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» William De Passey, 17th Lancers.1879.
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyToday at 1:20 pm by Frank Allewell

» List of identified bodies at Isandlwana
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyThu Sep 17, 2020 5:30 am by John Young

» Defenders of Rorkes Drift
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyWed Sep 16, 2020 6:47 pm by Digger

» Colour Sgt Anthony Clark Booth, VC.
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyTue Sep 15, 2020 6:47 pm by ADMIN

» Cpl John Lyons
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 7:49 pm by Bill8183

» A Case of Mistaken Identity?
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 11:29 am by John Young

» What happened next
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 10:51 am by Springbok

» Surgeon Espine Charles Ward
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyWed Sep 09, 2020 9:38 am by John Young

» 2nd Lieutenant William Lancelot James, 2nd/4th Regiment.
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyMon Sep 07, 2020 2:41 pm by ADMIN

» Explaining Amabutho in one word??
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyMon Sep 07, 2020 11:49 am by SRB1965

» Non-Combat Casualties - Royal Navy and Royal Marines
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyThu Sep 03, 2020 4:05 pm by Frank Allewell

» Non-Combat Casualties - Royal Artillery
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyWed Sep 02, 2020 8:01 pm by Catiline63

» Colonel William,Egerton Saunders, C.B
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:46 pm by ADMIN

» Lieutenant-Colonel David Campbell Williamson.
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:32 pm by ADMIN

» Brigade Surgeon E. J. Boulton
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:02 pm by ADMIN

» Joseph Walter O’Malley Martin. Assistant Surgeon
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:52 pm by ADMIN

» Quarter-Master William London
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:32 pm by ADMIN

» Surgeon Major Henry Lamb
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:19 pm by ADMIN

» Lieutenant Robert Thomas Graves Lowry
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:13 pm by ADMIN

» Sgt. John Philip Archbell NNC
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 8:43 pm by ADMIN

» Tpr. John Ross Natal Carbineer
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 8:27 pm by ADMIN

» Non-Combat Casualties in Colonial and Native Units
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 11:52 am by Julian Whybra

» Victorian HMS SHAH South Africa Zulu Wars Medal William Morrison Royal Navy
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 5:50 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» South African 1879 Zulu War medal to Corp R Starkey 57th Regiment of Foot
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 3:50 pm by 1879graves

» 2/4th Foot at Hlobane/Kambula
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 4:12 am by 90th

» England's Sons 9th edition
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyWed Aug 26, 2020 6:20 pm by Herbie

» Strange tales from Isandlwana
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptySun Aug 23, 2020 4:25 pm by SRB1965

» Colour - Sergeant George William Mabin
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptySat Aug 22, 2020 5:48 pm by Visitor

» Militaria Sale
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 5:59 pm by Frank Allewell

» Men of the 24th Regiment of Foot - Secunderabad, India 1873
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 12:48 am by 90th

» Malicious website
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptySun Aug 16, 2020 9:06 pm by ADMIN

» Rorkes drift Hotel
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyThu Aug 13, 2020 7:00 pm by robert taylor

» Durnford's medical officer
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyThu Aug 06, 2020 11:36 am by SRB1965

» Charles Sparks - any information available?
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyThu Aug 06, 2020 9:23 am by Julian Whybra

» back to the future
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyWed Aug 05, 2020 1:35 pm by aussie inkosi

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Black as Hell, Thick as Grass
Top posters
90th
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
littlehand
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
ADMIN
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
1879graves
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
rusteze
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
John
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
John Young
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
De Passey
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
ADMIN
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
1879graves
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
Kenny
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
90th
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
SRB1965
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
Digger
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
Catiline63
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_leftGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp BarGardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Bar_right 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Adding to the Library
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
24th taylor payne martini william drift harford smith melvill Woolfryes Prince Franklin zulu Russell Police james spalding Mounted Durnford gardner George henry john Isandlwana Natal horse

 

 Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp

Go down 
AuthorMessage
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Empty
PostSubject: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp   Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyThu Sep 24, 2015 4:49 pm

Bonjour,
There was some doubts in the past on this forum ("Durnford was is capable 5" / feb. 24 2015/ Frank Allewell/ Julian Whybra...) about the testimony given by Gardner and his last comment "entrench it":
"I left the force with the General about 10.30 a.m., and rode back to Islandana [sic] camp with the order to Lt Col. Pulleine to send on the camp equipage and surplus of the troops camping out and to remain himself at his present camp and entrench it".

On this subject there is an insteresting comment given by Glyn.

In a third memorendum, dated 26 february, Glyn responded at some length to Crealock's comments (...):
"The only order, to my knowledge, sent to the Officer commanding the camp at Isandhlwana that day was one issued by order of the Lt Gl to send out the tents, etc, of the force with the Lt Gl to the place where that force was to form a fresh encampment. Major Clery took the Lt-Gl's instructions to this effect down in his note book, and tore out the page on which they were written and sent it into camp. Major Clery informs me that he read over this message to the Lt Gl before sending it, to make sure he quite understood what His Excellency required done. He further adds that this message had reference to nothing except what concerned a part of the camp.
Captain Allan Gardner, 14th Hussars, was given this message to take into camp, and Major Clery states that he read this message over with Captain Gardner, as he gave it to him, to ensure his knowing its contents should any accident happen to it."



Source: Quoted from"Dead was everything" by Keith I. Smith

For Glyn, no instruction given to Gardner about the defense of the camp ...

Cheers

Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Empty
PostSubject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp   Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyThu Sep 24, 2015 5:46 pm

It's a good point Frederic. There is a clear discrepancy between Gardner's evidence and Glyn's statement. I have double checked the originals at Kew and they are exactly as quoted so it is not a transcription error. Gardner does not seem to be strongly supporting Crealock/LC's line however -  the main point he makes is that if a cavalry regiment had been available (or a few squadrons) they could quite easily have prevented the Zulus flanking movement around Durnford and hence avoid the defeat. He is of course a cavalry man! But he does not give the impression he is part of any attempt to blame Pulleine for not entrenching. So, how to explain the discrepancy?

Steve
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Empty
PostSubject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp   Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyThu Sep 24, 2015 10:14 pm

Steve,
I'm pretty sure Glyn wrote what he thought was the truth about the order given to Gardner for Pulleine: his memoredum intervenes in full debate about the blame for the disastrous ( a "fight" between him and Chelmsford-Crealock).

How to explain the discrepancy?
Maybe the memory of Gardner is simply deficient? (personally, I am not convinced by this hypothesis  Very Happy)
For example, in his official evidence to COI (only given a few days after the disastrous) Gardner was to recall: "i  may mention that a few minutes after my arrival in camp, i sent a message directed to the Staff Officer, 3rd Column, saying that our left was attacked by about 10.000 of the enemy".

Actually the content of the message was (as you know):
"Heavy firing near left of Camp.
Sheptone has come in for reinforcements, and reports the Basutos falling back. The whole force at Camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank".
Alan Gardner,
Captain, S.O.
(Quoted in "death was everything" by Keith Smith)


In his official evidence to COI, Gardner gives an impression of immediate danger for the Camp ("our left was attacked by 10.000 of the enemy"), which is not the case in the real message he sent...

Cheers


I.E: Last week, i made my first order to the "National archive"  for a copy of reports on the Zulu war.
I am impatient to receive it!!!
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Empty
PostSubject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp   Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyThu Sep 24, 2015 10:46 pm

About the point "if a cavalry regiment had been available" there are some thoughts on this subject by Damian O'Connor in his essay "The missing cavalry ; A footnote to the history of the AZW" but i am Off Topic
Cheers
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Empty
PostSubject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp   Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyFri Sep 25, 2015 10:20 am

From Steve (24th  February 2015 / Durnford was he capable 5):


Chelmsford wrote to Bartle Frere on 23 January to inform him of the disaster at Isandhlwana. In it he says the following.

"The troops left in camp consisted of five cos. 1/24th, 2 guns RA, about 20 Mounted Infantry, 30 Mounted Police and 30 Natal Volunteers. The whole was under the command of Lt. Col. Pulleine 1/24th.

The rocket battery under Capt. Russell RA and five troops Mounted Basutos, the whole commanded by Colonel Durnford RE arrived at the camp in the course of the day that the camp had been attacked.

I had previously sent direction... (word illegible) the camp struck and moved to the point where the force was then operating against Matyan."

So no mention of a partial packing up, or entrenching for those who remained. He reports that he directed the camp to be struck.
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Empty
PostSubject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp   Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyFri Sep 25, 2015 10:42 am

Lord Chelmsford minute statement, 19 march 1879 /TNA  WO 33/34 Enclosure i in n°101/

"After captain Gardiner [sic] had delivred the message regarding the sending out of the tents and camp equipment to Lt-Col Pulleine at about 11:30 a.m. , it would seem that the latter Officer sent  a message back to the effect that he was not able to carry the order at that time. This message was not received until quite late in the afternoon of the 22 January 1879, and as it contained no allusion to any danger from attack or any request for assistance, i feel that my assumption that no danger was anticipated must be correct".

(Quoted in "dead was everything" p.144)

Again, no mention of entrenching the camp for those who remained...


I.E: Frank: about your hypothesis (Younghusband), note that "This message was not received until quite late in the afternoon of the 22 January 1879" Wink

Cheers
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Empty
PostSubject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp   Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyFri Sep 25, 2015 12:12 pm

In conclusion:

1°) Gardner certainly never receipted a message for Pulleine with the sentence about the camp "entrench it";

2°) Only a moving part of the camp was planned (at this moment);

So the question, why this sentence ?

As Steve wrote: "Gardner does not seem to be strongly supporting Crealock/LC's line however" and " he does not give the impression he is part of any attempt to blame Pulleine for not entrenching".

-Today i gave an explanation (faulty memory);

-Frank Allewell wrote: "For Chelmsford to order the camp to be entrenched is completely illogical. It makes no sense at all. I would hesitate to accuse, but I don't believe that message came from Chelmsford, at that time". (24 february 2015 / "Durnford was he capable 5?")

-Mr Julian Whybra wrote: "Frank, For what it's worth I am inclined to agree. But still we are left with Gardner's exact words. Perhaps he was repeating hearsay from those around LC before he left the Mangeni. Perhaps it was supposition on his part. As this was part of his evidence at the CoI, Chelmsford would have been able to correct the statement, but he didn't.
It's something which has to be borne in mind. A piece from a different jigsaw perhaps? History can be like that at times.(24 february 2015 / "Durnford was he capable 5?")

Other suggestions?

Cheers.

Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Empty
PostSubject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp   Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyFri Sep 25, 2015 1:22 pm

I am not sure this adds anything but here is Gardner's written statement. Note there is a correction.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
copyright National Archives

Steve
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Empty
PostSubject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp   Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyFri Sep 25, 2015 1:47 pm

Nice paper!

I can't read the word crossed out under "himself"....

Cheers

I.E: i measure all the suffering in deciphering the copies of the original reports expected from the N.A..... Sad Sad Sad
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Empty
PostSubject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp   Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyFri Sep 25, 2015 1:51 pm

Some are not easy to read. The word crossed out is "myself".

Steve
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Empty
PostSubject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp   Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp EmptyFri Sep 25, 2015 2:00 pm

Thank you Steve.
It seems to me that "Myself" in the context of the sentence is also possible...but its changes nothing...
Cheers
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Sponsored content




Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Empty
PostSubject: Re: Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp   Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp Empty

Back to top Go down
 
Gardner's testimony wih the sentence "entrench it" about the camp
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: ZULU WAR BATTLES-
Jump to: