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 Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Julian Whybra
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ymob

ymob


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PostSubject: Re: Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve   Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve - Page 4 EmptyMon Oct 03, 2016 4:01 pm

Bonjour Frank,

I only note that the testimonies of Uguku and Magema Fuze are complementary.

The testimony of Uguku is interesting because it gives an explanation about the "great" number of men with Matyana while his own forces were estimated before the war to 700 men.
The 6 coys + "rebels" from other tribes living in the vicinity.

If my hypothesis is correct, Matyana was not present with his men the 21 January when they met Dartnell and Lonsdale. But effectively, the tactic used by his men seems to be different.
The problem is the lack of certainty about the objective pursued by the « Sitholes » the 21 January.
Cheers.
Frédéric
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve   Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve - Page 4 EmptyMon Oct 03, 2016 4:51 pm

Just for clarification.
Chelmsford  says in his note of 19 January to Durnford that he intends to operate against the "two Matyanas'.
Laband tells us in his notes that this refers to Matyana kaMondisi, who lived in the Qudeni bush, and Matyana kaSitshukuza who lived in the Buffalo River valley.
In the various quotes are we sure which Matyana is being referred to?
Chelmsford tells Durnford where each of them were (did he know this or was he guessing?).
And if Chelmsford actually knew the location of M. kaMondisi was there time for him to be with the main army at Babanango and then be back at Mangeni in time to confront Dartnell?
(I note Frederic that you think he was not there).
Steve
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve   Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve - Page 4 EmptyMon Oct 03, 2016 6:13 pm

Frederic
That's a really interesting concept.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve   Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve - Page 4 EmptyMon Oct 03, 2016 9:01 pm

Bonsoir Steve,
I don't know if that helps but Fynn the border agent and magistrate of  Umsinga was the advisor of LC.
In my opinion, the two Chiefs can't been confounded. The personal story of Matyana Kamondisi is particular. Before his "bloody" altercation with Sheptone's family twenty years before (from memory), he lived in Natal.

Frank,
Happy if you have found my comment interesting.
Merci beaucoup.
Frédéric
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xhosa2000

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve   Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve - Page 4 EmptyMon Oct 03, 2016 9:24 pm

' misjan ' concealed weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve   Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve - Page 4 EmptyFri Oct 14, 2016 7:43 pm

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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve   Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve - Page 4 EmptyTue Oct 18, 2016 11:24 pm

Bonsoir,
I know that no estimate of the Zulu forces at Isandhlwana is reliable but this report from Milne is somewhere interesting : it implies that near half of the Undi force has not fought at RD.

From Lt Milne:
"At Rorke's Drift one of the prisoners taken gave the Under-mentioned names as the Régiments who attacked at Isandhlwana":
Undi Regiment (Cetywayo's own Regiment):....8,000.
(....)
Attacking force at Rorke's Drift consisted of from 4,000 to 5,000 men of the Undi Regiment".

Cheers

Frédéric
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve   Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve - Page 4 EmptyFri Dec 02, 2016 10:51 pm

ymob wrote:
Bonjour Frank,

I only note that the testimonies of Uguku and Magema Fuze are complementary.

The testimony of Uguku is interesting because it gives an explanation about the "great" number of men with Matyana while his own forces were estimated before the war to 700 men.
The 6 coys + "rebels" from other tribes living in the vicinity.

If my hypothesis is correct, Matyana was not present with his men the 21 January when they met Dartnell and Lonsdale. But effectively, the tactic used by his men seems to be different.
The problem is the lack of certainty about the objective pursued by the « Sitholes » the 21 January.
Cheers.
Frédéric

Bonsoir,
Extract from  an article entitled "Isandhlwana; A visit Six Months After The Disaster" by Alexander N. Montgomery, late Commandant N.N.N ("The Leisure Hour"/1882):

"The zulus appear to have gone out in three columns under Matyan. At this the two other commanders remonstrated with Cetewayo, for Matyan, having been in Natal, was supposed to be tainted, but he was firm. They then dissembled and persuaded Matyan that their enemy was on the right. If Matyan went that way they would go round and drive him in. Then they advanced their horns well to their left. This manoeuvre, thought not intented to have that effect, caused Lord Chelmsford to start from the camp with his reconnoitering column. Meanwhile the Zulus horns pressed forward, keen to wash their spears, attacked the camp...".

Cheers

Frédéric
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve   Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve - Page 4 EmptySat Dec 03, 2016 6:19 am

Morning Frederic
Seems to contain elements from various other testimonies ie: the plot to get rid of 'Matyan'.Iit stretches the imagination with the distances between the 'right horn' and the ,left horn,' around 12 miles or so !

Frank
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve   Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve - Page 4 EmptySat Dec 03, 2016 10:11 pm

Bonsoir Frank,
Relevant note...
Nevertheless, it seems that the 3 commanders of the Zulu army just before Isandhlwana were really in disagreement.

Cheers

Frédéric
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve   Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve - Page 4 EmptyTue Dec 06, 2016 10:22 pm

Just to say that I've been reading this thread and found it really interesting with some thought-provoking ideas thrown in. I don't feel I want to contribute to it at the moment (too much going on) but it is really tempting. I congratulate the contributors.
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ymob

ymob


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PostSubject: Re: Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve   Hypothesis on the positions of the Zulu reserve - Page 4 EmptySun Dec 11, 2016 11:16 pm

It's a pity...

Cheers

Frédéric
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