Penn Symons leather-bound account

Subject: Penn Symons leather-bound account Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:42 pm

Hi all,

Due to the amount of requests they have received from people wishing to view it, the VC Trust are considering having a number of 'replica' leather-bound books made of the Penn Symons (Symonds) account of iSandlwana and Rorke's Drift.

They are currently 'testing the water' to see if there would be any interest before they look into it further.

Neil

Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21

A lot depends on price?

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:42 pm

Yup, fully agree, and that's precisely what I said (ie I would be intetested depending on price)

If I hear anything more I'll update.

Neil

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

I said back in August that the VC Trust should consider making their copy of the Penn Symonds report available for study and it's good they appear to have done so. It is pleasing that a number of people have requested access to the Doncaster document and the production of copies seems a good approach to making it available. I hope however that they do not price people out of the market by going for unnecessary things like fancy leather bindings - we don't need yet another limited edition. The most interesting aspect of this remains the relationship between the original at Brecon (which has traditionally been kept under wraps) and the VC Trust text. The best outcome of all would be for Brecon to do something along similar lines. Perhaps some joined up thinking is required?

Steve

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:12 pm

There would be a number of caveats: Are we talking the original hand written notes or a typed copy. If it is to be a typed copy will it be exactly as per the notes or would it be the sanitized version? I would disagree though Steve, this is a unique article and a very important artefact I do believe it should be accorded that respect and produce in a manner befitting that status. Or am I being a literal snob?

Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24

Anyhoo! whats the big deal.. anything over a ton would well
be a rip!. we know what he say's and more importantly..
why! he says what he does, he's hardly unbiased.. iv'e paid
up to three hundred for a title i thought at the time ' i simply
must have '. and i guess up to a dozen which cost well over
the ton, so wheres the market for this?, of course the collectors
among us will buy it, or anything that has a connection to the
AZW.. i just hope they don't take the piss. anyone of you who
have any influence might ensure it's done properly, leather
bound....who gives a toss!. just get it out for a sensible price
and it will find its ' niche ' market.

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:48 pm

Well I think if your going to do it, do it properly. Leather sounds find.
Where's the money going to?

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

I tend to agree with Les, although I do think the content is intrinsically interesting given the context and the possible motives of the author. Frank, you are being a literal snob. The original is manuscript with, I guess, no particular binding. The Doncaster copy is in a simple leather cover with gold blocked letters - not an expensive or unusual option at the time. Doing justice to the document lies in producing it, not in pretending its the Lindisfarne Gospel. They will not sell many but it will be of interest to enthusiasts around the globe who are unlikely to make it to Doncaster. The same is even more true of Brecon! I would rather that interested parties offered to help them produce copies - the old idea of a subscribers list - if that would lessen their financial risk. I think public museums should always prioritise the widest study of their colections - not seek to produce exclusive editions of their material.

Steve

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:54 pm

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/adampartridge/catalogue-id-adam-p10096/lot-d17a8f3a-42e0-4925-8d32-a65200e68b00

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:45 pm

Hi Littlehand, it would be undertaken purely as a fundraising venture for the Trust, who, as a registered charity, do sterling work in their grave restorations and other related projects.

I tend to agree about the content being more appealing than the presentation.

I can relay everyone's feedback and thoughts back to the Trust.

Neil

Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24

Nice one Littlehand, i remember that! i thought the estimate was
very low at the time, i don't know who got it. But surely that is
the product going forward, a facsimile of that!. if that would be
possible. look's to contain handwritten and typed pages..

Subject: Penn Symons Leather - Bound Account Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:32 am

I'd be keen to get one . I've registered my interest elsewhere .
90th

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:30 am

Suffice to say at this stage that work is being done on the documents.

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:46 am

Sorry I thought I would just clarify. There is more than one versions of the account.
At Brecon there are two, an original series of notes with corrections, crossing outs and additions, and a second handwritten finalised copy, that copy has notes added in later years.
There is the 'copy' that was auctioned that is different in certain areas
There are two copies in Natal at present, with different owners.
There is another, annotated, copy that was sent to his mother, again a different owner
So in answer to a question posed earlier, no we do not know what he has to say.
There is an enormous amount of work to be/is being done to compare and put together a considered document. That's the document that will be worth spending money on.
But whatever happens friends do not spend hard earned money on an ersartz version.

Frank

Subject: Penn Symons Leather Bound Account Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:48 am

There's also a booklet on Isandlwana Produced by Frank Emery , in which , Emery uses selected passages from Penn Symons , it's titled ' The 24th Regt At Isandlwana , The Zulu War 1879 ' 18 or so pages .
90th

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:00 am

Morning/Evening Gary, yes there is, but again when he wrote that he wasn't given full access. In fact in his preface he says: " Now its high time that Penn Symonds was heard."
Cheers

Subject: Penn Symons Leather Bound Account Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:15 am

Hi Frank .
Emery doesn't say he never had full access to the Penn Symons report , if he didn't have full access Emery would've stated as such . The Quote ' Now it's high time Penn Symons was heard ' means just that , in that Emery is saying it's time to produce the goods so to speak , Emery goes onto to say '' In these pages I have SELECTED PASSAGES from his ( Penn Symons ) text so as to capture the essence of a unique narrative '' , now he's hardly going write that sentence if he hasn't had full access to the account is he ? .
Cheers Mate
90th Very Happy

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:20 am

As a point of interest, I have agreed with Brecon to include transcriptions of the texts of their two Symons' Report versions together with commentary in a future volume of Studies in the Zulu War (to be sold through the museum). I was given permission to photograph these pages and have done so.
I fully intend to prepare this for volume V (I'm currently working on volume IV, the content of which is pretty much decided).
I would expect the cost of the proposed volume to be the same as for Vol. I-III and publication to be 12-18 months away.

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:21 am

Hi Gary
Your quite right in the emery quote but there again we will have to disagree on the interpretation, to counter your comments he never says he had unfettered access, and yes why wouldn't he comment on his selection? Theres always the possibility he selected from what he was allowed to see. Emery never mentions which version of the documents he saw? The original notes or the hand written copy? There are big differences, and as an author of note its highly unlikely he would have passed up the chance to write a potential best seller rather than a misely pamphlet?
Family arriving tomorrow from New Zealand and Europe so full house of grand kids, could run out of waste paper baskets Very Happy

and then we are of on safari for a couple of weeks.
Have a great Xmas mate, greetings to the family, chat again in the new year.

frank

Subject: Penn Symons Leather - Bound Account Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:30 am

Hi Frank
We certainly agree to disagree , as you said Emery being such a noted author , certainly , in my mind , would've mentioned if he didn't have access to the entire account . Maybe the report is not the Holy Grail people expect it to be ? . He talks to survivors , that's well and good , but there are plenty of survivor accounts kicking around in Several books . We may just never know , even Penn Symons states we'll never know the full story of Isandlwana .
All the best you and the family mate , I can imagine the invasion will be in full swing soon ! hahahahahahaha
Cheers Mate
90th

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Good news Julian. Well done.

Steve

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:49 pm

Hi all,

Further news:

"I am very pleased to announce that we have today completed a publishing agreement with Unicorn Press to reproduce the Penn Symonds account of the battles of Isandhlwana & Rorke's Drift. At this stage the plan is to produce two versions. A generic version containing the content which would probably retail for around £10, secondly a limited edition reproduction facsimile copy for collectors which we currently have no idea of cost,but would be reasonable, this would be available exclusively through the VC Trust."

What with this and Julian's efforts we should be afforded the chance to feast our eyes on both sets for minimal outlay.

Neil

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:43 pm

Neil
Good news indeed. I won't be hurried into getting my commission out as soon as possible before VC's. I don't want a 'race'. I think the report is too important to 'rush' the commentary.
All
Frank is quite right. Frank Emery was allowed only limited access to the Report and subject to 'censorship'.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Good news all round. It is pleasing that all these versions will now become public. But I do agree that the commentary and analysis is everything and should be further enhanced by the availability of the VC Trust version as well as the two at Brecon. Waiting patiently and with anticipation.

Steve

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:18 pm

Hi Neal

When would the limited addition copy be ready for purchase and where would it be advertised when its ready for sale?

Thanks
Geraint

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:56 pm

Hi Geraint,

It's the VC Trust who are having it reproduced. I assume they will have it on their site and also perhaps online (website & social media)

I will update this page when I hear anything.

Neil

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:17 pm

Thanks Neal

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Sun Dec 18, 2016 10:58 pm

Neal
Out of curiosity what is the connection between the VC Trust and William Penn Symons? I thought their involvement was only with VC winners?

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:29 pm

Hi Julian,

Other than them having the leather-bound copy I don't know of any connection.

I would hazard a guess that they got it due to the interest surrounding the battles, and the VC's that were awarded.

They have a museum and I imagine it was felt to be a worthwhile addition.

So as to avoid any misunderstanding - I am in no way associated with the VC Trust. I merely 'follow' them on Facebook and have recently communicated with the Trust's chairman through it.

Neil

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:27 am

Thanks.

Subject: Re: Penn Symons leather-bound account Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:29 pm

Hi all,

This is due to be published in January as a paperback.

The leather-bound edition will follow some time later.

Neil

» Men of the 24th Regiment of Foot - Secunderabad, India 1873
» Penn Symons grave at Dundee
» Rorke's Drift Diary - Captain William Penn Symons