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 Rorke's Drift

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nthornton1979
xhosa2000
Frank Allewell
90th
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


Posts : 1186
Join date : 2015-11-24

Rorke's Drift - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 08, 2017 8:18 pm

Hiya Simon, please mate no! you did not upset me in any way..
i am without ego!. reading my reply to you i feel that as you
don't know me you might have found my post patronising, with
the ' there was a massacre ' blah blah.. not my intention at all.
i am not a Chard ' groupie '.. i felt he was an honest man who
did his duty on the day, as part of a tremendous team effort.
he earned the cross for his action's directing the men under his
command during the twelve hour's the defence lasted.. in the
aftermath in his initial report he collated the names of the men
who had in some way distinguished them self's and added them
to his report..Chelmsford realised he had made no mention of
himself so added him to the list.

Again Chard was maligned by both Wood and Buller they reported
that ' the defence was brilliant and stuborn. but the puzzle to them
was....who was the man who organised it... for it showed
a genius and quickness.. neither of which were apparently qualifi-
cation's of Chard, a dull heavy man, scarcely ever able to do his
regular work. ( IK )

You do not and have not provoked me, i just wish people such as
your self would post more.. cheers xhosa Les
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


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PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 08, 2017 8:38 pm

And Simon i forgot to add, yeah mate..40 odd years
seems about right, if this subject grips you there
really is no getting away from it, i remember coll well,
could not fault his enthusiasm for all things AWD, but
i guess he was driven off by those whose patience was
stretched.. what i personally could not forgive him, was
his confession ( with no contrition ) that he actually
threw books into the bin if they did not smell right to him!
now that is to much for me to take.. good job there's a word
for that.. anathema. but he was harmless.
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ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Rorke's Drift - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 08, 2017 9:19 pm

Frank,
Thank for your answer.
About Steve, I read with many interest his post on this thread about his change of opinion of Glyn.
If his discovery has a link with Glyn...exciting!
To my knowledge Steve has never written an essay: I'm sure he would do a good job!
Frank and Steve, time to work hard! (with a translation of your work in French:Frank, I noticed your remarkable progress in French Wink )

Cheers

Frédéric
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rusteze

rusteze


Posts : 2872
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 08, 2017 9:23 pm

Frank's earlier use of the word "we" needs to be understood as the royal we - as in "we are not amused". Whilst on his latest safari he has clearly wrestled a stash of dusty manuscripts from the lair of a great bull elephant that was once the personal pet of  Sir Henry Bartle Frere - that elephant has forgotten nothing!

As for me, I have a modest piece in Julian's up-coming new edition of Studies in the AZW 1879 but I will say no more about that now, it should appear in a few months. On a different topic, I want to do some more work on Glyn, particularly in relation to his exploits on the Eastern Cape. I have a couple of books on order to widen my reading first but I have a feeling that his rather inexplicable attitude during the run up to Isandhlwana and subsequently may have its roots in the events of 1878. But we shall see. Still lots of fun to be had.

Steve
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Rorke's Drift - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 08, 2017 9:39 pm

Steve you missed a glorious opportunity there, for 'Stash' read 'Trunk"
' Very Happy
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rusteze

rusteze


Posts : 2872
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PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 08, 2017 9:43 pm

I should employ you as my agent.
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John

John


Posts : 2558
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Age : 60
Location : UK

Rorke's Drift - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 08, 2017 10:12 pm

xhosa2000 wrote:
xhosa2000 wrote:
Chard was an Engineer! not an infantry officer of the line,
he came to build.. not destroy.

Would this 'job description' have saved him had the Zulus caught him..

Hi SRB1965... it's a what if!.. what happened was that there was a
massacre at Isandhlwana and that was followed up by an attack on
the mission station.. all known details are recorded. what if's and
unsubstantiated theory's and ' working hypothesises ' are all very
well and can occupy a certain amount of leeway, but usually to no
end! the known facts are all we have.. some of the posts above can
be mildly diverting but they usually trail off into nothing of any con-
sequence. i picked up on the post's where Chard's temperament and
performance was questioned, by people who had no business to do
so, only repeating what was said by some contemporary's. i ask all
to judge Chard vc by what he did do.          cheers xhosa

The luck of the draw, was the colour of your Jacket!
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ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
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PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 08, 2017 10:17 pm

Steve,
Sincères félicitations.
I'm looking forward to read your "modest piece"of work in "Studies Zulu War IV" and your study about Glyn whose personality is known essentially through the writings of the "bitter" Clery.

I.E. Nice description of Frank, "the elephant whispered".

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http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
John

John


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PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 08, 2017 10:30 pm

Chard kind of had an idea something was going to kick off.

""An N.C.O. of the 24th Regiment lent me a field glass, which was a very good one, and I also looked with my own, and could see the enemy moving on the distant hills, and apparently in great force. Large numbers of them moving to my left, until the lion hill of Isandhlwana, on my left as I looked at them, hid them from my view. The idea struck me that they might be moving in the direction between the camp and Rorke's Drift and prevent my getting back, and also they might be going to make a dash at the ponts."
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littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7077
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Location : Down South.

Rorke's Drift - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 08, 2017 11:21 pm

ymob wrote:
Bonjour à tous,
First remark; About Spalding.

I wrote in my first post: "If the departure of Spalding was really around 2 p.m."
This point has not been contested by any of you but both Ian Knight ("Zulu Rising" / p.425) and Neil Thornton  ("RD a new perspective" / p.30) seem to think that  Spalding left the mission station in the late morning.

I am not sure but it seems to me that it is a timing problem (concerning Spalding) for the continuation of the events in the afternoon....

Cheers

Frédéric



Frederic if you have the book "For Queen & Country. Take alook at pages 35-36 regardig your comment about timing problems.
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90th

90th


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Location : Melbourne, Australia

Rorke's Drift - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Rorke's Drift    Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 09, 2017 2:45 am

Hi Frank
As you mentioned your storm yesterday it made our news coverage , didn't look good ! , as at last night there were 8 fatalities !.
90th Sad Sad Sad
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SRB1965

SRB1965


Posts : 896
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 57
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Rorke's Drift - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 09, 2017 5:39 am

John wrote:

The luck of the draw, was the colour of your Jacket!

Hmmm, I never have been really convinced of the 'eat up the red soldiers' idea.....Yes apparently the officers who survived would/could have been wearing patrol jackets (but they also had something big and strong between their legs) but many more who were killed were not 'red' soldiers....

Maybe (or maybe not) the red jackets would have made the fleeing men easier to spot (I'm not even sure I hold with that idea).

The most ridiculous thing I once read that was a couple of NNC NCOs where found with lamp black on their faces....

But I agree it was all down to luck.....and the time you left Isandlwana

Cheers

Simon
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ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
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Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 09, 2017 9:29 am

littlehand wrote:
ymob wrote:
Bonjour à tous,
First remark; About Spalding.





Frederic if you have the book "For Queen & Country. Take alook at pages 35-36 regardig your comment about timing problems.

Bonjour Littlehand,

Thank you very much.

Wilfired Heaton (24th) diary's : "Wednesday 22 January 1879
Rainforth 's Coy left [Helpmekaar] at 2.30 ours just after 3. Met Spalding outside (...)".

Comment from the author (extract):
"Preciselly where they met up is not quite clear, s the word "outside" could mean anywhere from the Officers Mess at Helpmekaar to somewhere on the track to RD.
In his own report, submitted after the battle, Major Spalding states that he arrived at Helpmekaar at 3.45 p.m. where he met both Coy's but there would seem to be a discrepancy here. The 2 Coys were not under any orders to wait for Major Spalding, so they had no reason to delay. If Wilfried left at the time that he states in his diary, then they would have been about 3 miles from Helpmekaar on the track to RD.when they met up with Major Spalding at 3.45 p.m.. Spalding however, reports that he met the Coys at Helpmekaar at that time".

Cheers
Frédéric

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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


Posts : 1186
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PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 19, 2017 12:15 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


Posts : 1186
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PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 15, 2017 11:25 pm

This image will do here, i'm not sure where i previously
posted it. damn again pb. this is the clearest one iv'e
seen, from the Times book of War.

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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


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PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyTue Aug 15, 2017 11:28 pm

Hmm.. a tad big.. but if anyone down loads it,
it will make more sense.
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


Posts : 1186
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PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyThu Sep 21, 2017 10:08 pm

Another great view of the Drift.

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90th

90th


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Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Rorke's Drift    Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyFri Sep 22, 2017 4:59 am

Hi Les
This pic was taken from Kwa Sinquindi , I managed to climb most of it back in May , if you'd like the pics I took feel free to ask , I'll send them to you and you can post them if you wish .
Cheers Mate
90th Very Happy Salute
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


Posts : 1186
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PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyFri Sep 22, 2017 12:18 pm

Nice one Gary. what a spectacular view!, yeah mate after photo bucket,
wee need lots more images to replace what has been lost. i'm happy to
post anything for you. imgur is so easy to manage and a lot quicker
than pb. just e mail me mate... cheers xhosa
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Rorke's Drift    Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyFri Sep 22, 2017 2:10 pm

Hi Les
Will email you the pics from KwaSinquindi after work tomorrow afternoon .
90th agree
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


Posts : 1186
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PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyFri Sep 22, 2017 2:54 pm

Okey Dokey, take it easy. Salute
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


Posts : 1186
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PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptySat Sep 23, 2017 10:34 am

Image's courtesy of Gary..

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Looking to Rorke's Drift ,
1/ Shiyane ( Left) , RD ( Centre ) , Kwa Siquindi ( Middle Right )

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2/ Looking to KwaSinquindi RD is basically behind me.

Many thank's 90th. xhosa
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: Rorke's Drift    Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptySat Sep 23, 2017 10:37 am

Thanks Les
Cheers 90th Very Happy Very Happy
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


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PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptySat Sep 23, 2017 8:25 pm

Thank's Gary.. Salute

Here are the pics from near the summit of KwaSiquindi , looking to RD , Isandlwana is in the distance , this was where Chard saw Zulu's early on the 23rd Jan . I've taken them in a Panoramic view , looking left to right as you'll notice . This is from a similar position of where the photo you posted was taken .

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This is a magnified view from Kwasiquindi looking again to RD and Shiyane . Isandlwana in the distance .

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Paul Lamberth




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PostSubject: Re: Rorke's Drift   Rorke's Drift - Page 2 EmptyTue Sep 26, 2017 2:47 pm

Its all a matter of “timing”.
Dartnell's runner arrives at the “ camp” early hours of the morning (22nd) General is informed…”well thats it I know where my opponent is…so move the column…and he leaves “without the sound of bugle”…first light…cautiously with half of his troop to join up with the van.
Runner is sent to call up rear guard (2 hours push by horse) Durnford. Runner (Smith-Dorrien) has breakfast with Bromhead.
Chard rides up to camp to get orders…on return meets up with Durnford…”my breakfast was disturbed” (08:00 camp in defence)
Durnford has a standing breakfast with Pulleine…mid morning. So departure would be +/- 07:30 hrs
Spalding puts Chard in command…nothing will happen, and return by night fall. RD - Helpmekaar 18 km 2hrs plus by horse. Men (defenders) mention possible sighting of Spalding…last lights. G company? 12 + 6 = 18:00 hrs.? Chard: felt peckish so I retired to my tent to write a letter home. (I would say mid day then).
Attack on camp +/- mid day. Ardendorf arrives…at least 2 hours ride so if he was at the camp under attack = 14-15:00 hrs.
Activity heard to the East..guns. Lt. Curling…+/- 20 salvos fired…warning by George Shepstone. Cpt. Gardner arrives informs Pulleine “move the camp” but it is about to fall under attack. Gardiner sees Pope move to right flank…towards Durford’s donga…this equates towards 13:00 hrs.
Reynold comes down from the hill…runner appears (sent by Gardner) Gardner arrives at Helpmekaar late afternoon…but Spalding was not there.  Fugitives passing by and Durnfords men on horse (Kambula) appear (this takes us to +/- 15:00 hrs).
Bromhead calls council  decide to “stand and fight” build defence wall - summon Chard..he takes charge…barricade the Hospital etc…more men pass…get out of here Zulus on their way. +/- 15:30.
“Here they come” Hitch…+/- 16:30

This is by no means complete but it gives an idea of timing…and one can build on it from a significant amount of reference…just join the dots. I know how long it takes to ride, run, and walk but I was not chased by 3000 Zulus.
Did Spalding know all was lost at the camp? No.
Was Chard aware? No. but he knew that something was on (initially) that changed at +/- 15:00 hrs - cool calm and collected he prepared defence…and did not question Bromhead’s stance. Stevenson’s departure did not phase Chard…he called for a fall back position.
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