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 Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana

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cetewayo

cetewayo

Posts : 24
Join date : 2012-05-30
Location : United States

Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana Empty
PostSubject: Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana   Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 03, 2020 5:29 am

Does anyone know if there are any sources which indicate what jackets each of the officers of the 24th were wearing at Isandlwana? I know it’s well known that Melvill was wearing a red tunic and Coghill was wearing a blue patrol jacket.  It’s my understanding that Pulleine also wore a blue patrol jacket, but I’m not sure if that’s based on anything I’ve read, or whether I have that impression because that’s what he was wearing in Zulu Dawn.  I’m aware of the photo of Porteous, Cavaye, and Degacher from November of 1878 in which Porteous and Degacher are wearing patrol jackets and Cavaye has a red tunic but I don’t know if this means that is what they would have worn at Isandlwana.  I don’t have any information on any other officers.  If anyone has any insight or can point me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate it.
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 879
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 56
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana   Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 03, 2020 8:58 am

Hi,

I think you may struggle as to what the various officers wore on the day.

I would have thought it would have been whatever tunic/jacket the officer felt comfortable in - patrol jacket or tunic

John Young should be able to give you more info about the dress regulations but whether these were adhered to on the day.....in campaign situations probably not so much

This is of no relevance to your question but Carey (of Prince Napoleon infamy) wore a non regulation patrol jacket because he lost his baggage in a ship wreck and had to borrow one.

Gonville Bromhead could have favoured a OR tunic, with insignia removed (not sure of the sources but that is what I have read).

Bromhead's brothers' campaign jacket still exists (as does the bullet hole) but what pattern it is, John only knows......

I would spose it rather depends on what was in fashion with fellow officers etc

There may be references when the bodies were spotted on the 22/23rd or buried later - some officers were identified by their uniform remnants.

Ta

Sime
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7741
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana   Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 03, 2020 9:20 am

Im sure there is a reference to a comment that was made regarding all the officers that escaped were wearing blue ? This was offered as a reason why they did escape whereas all the others wearing red were killed.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7741
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Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana   Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 03, 2020 9:41 am

Smith Dorrien
"I heard afterwards that [the Zulus] had been told by their King Cetywayo that black coats were civilians and were not worth killing. I had a blue patrol jacket on, and it is noticeable that the only five officers who escaped....had blue coats. I rode through unheeded, and shortly after was passed by Lieutenant Coghill, wearing a blue patrol and cord breeches and riding a red roan horse. "

Hope that helps
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ciroferrara

ciroferrara

Posts : 224
Join date : 2010-10-07
Age : 29
Location : exeter

Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana   Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 03, 2020 5:41 pm

Hi all
It is Frederick Godwin-Austins brother whose jacket still exists in the Brecon museum. The bullet holes came about during the month cape frontier war when a soldier in he's company accidentally discharged his rifle. I will try and find a picture
Cheers
Ciroferrara
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ciroferrara

ciroferrara

Posts : 224
Join date : 2010-10-07
Age : 29
Location : exeter

Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana   Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 03, 2020 5:45 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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cetewayo

cetewayo

Posts : 24
Join date : 2012-05-30
Location : United States

Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana   Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana EmptyWed Jun 03, 2020 10:15 pm

Thank you everyone for the information.
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 879
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 56
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana   Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana EmptyThu Jun 04, 2020 8:10 am

ciroferrara wrote:
Hi all
It is Frederick Godwin-Austins brother whose jacket still exists in the Brecon museum. The bullet holes came about during the month cape frontier war when a soldier in he's company accidentally discharged his rifle. I will try and find a picture
Cheers
Ciroferrara

Of course, silly me.....that's probably why a Google search (to get a quick photo) of 'Bromheads jacket' kept coming up with a garage music group.......
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 879
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Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana   Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana EmptyThu Jun 04, 2020 8:14 am

Hi Frank,

Never been too convinced by that idea.....at one time I was trying to draw up a data base of escapees and possible jacket colours but it got very confusing when I figured out that a IMI or Rocketeer could have ditched his red jacket in the heat of the day and panic of the fight.....so I ground to a halt....

Cheers

Sime
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John Young

John Young

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Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana   Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana EmptyThu Jun 04, 2020 9:50 am

Cetewayo,

This is from Dress Regulations for the Officers of the Army.  Published on 1st November 1874.

Under the section Infantry - The Line, gives us another option that of:
Second tunic. - Of light cloth or serge; in all other respects the same as the dress tunic.  It is at the option of officers to provide themselves with this article or not.

Then there is the so-called scarlet or Indian-pattern patrol.  As depicted in the attached photograph of Lt. Teignmouth Melvill, V.C. -

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Lt. T. Melivill, V.C., 1st/24th

Sorry for the poor quality of the image, but I can’t lay my hands of the original at the present time.

JY
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7741
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Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana   Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana EmptyThu Jun 04, 2020 10:24 am

Hi Simon
Smith Dorriens concept, but it does answer the question as to what was being worn by the Fugitive officers. As for the rest, take a guess or ask Boris, he seems to rather good at doing that. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Our lot cant spell the word !
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WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior

Posts : 128
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana   Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 6:45 pm

Anstey was discovered wearing cord riding breeches. As stated above, the source is that the Imperial Officers who survived wore blue patrol jackets. Melvill wore a red tunic and Coghill a patrol jacket. Durnford wore a blue patrol jacket with a red? RE vest underneath.
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 879
Join date : 2017-05-13
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Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana   Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana EmptyFri Jul 03, 2020 6:06 am

I prefer to think that survival or not depended on:-

Where someone was (ie the Company officers on the firing line, with their men - could have been wearing anything and they were on a sticky wicket)

If transport was available - Company Officers would not have had ready access to a horse.

And finally if the officers in question had a reason to stick it out (I'm not debating Mel & Cogs actions or casting aspersions here.... Shocked ) - it has been said that the 'lucky five' had no command (from the start or remaining) or reason to stay behind.

If you think about it - half, if not more of the British army didn't wear red coats - and all (?) of the survivors had or got a horse.......the part of the army who didn't have access to horses (generally and excepting the IMI & rocketeers) were the 'redcoats'

Spose we'll never know but I can imagine how HSD could come to that conclusion, when he'd got his breath back.

Cheers

Sime
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