Captain Barry and his Picquet at Mkwene

Your most welcome Mel

We all love discussing this battle there is so much mystery about it we all put in our views and learn from each other

Love to see more of you on the forum

Hi Mel and welcome to the forum. Yes I have a book due out in October: 'iSandlwana, Solving the Enigma.' Its a series of conjoined essays aimed at giving possible solutions to specific points. Just a quick 40 year study exercise.

Frank, the 2nd Bn 24th Regt was taken as they were numerically stronger, although the 1st BN had initially been told to stand to. See Paton, Historical Records p. 232.

As for the story of taking wounded along, it's in the account of the warrior Umhoti and refers to C Company's final withdrawal.

Some how it doesnt suprise me that you came up with that.

Welcome to the forum Mel.
I just find the whole campaign fascinating and bouncing ideas off one another on the forum is great fun.
I'm just desperate to get back over there and get my boots dirty walking the hills and trails looking for answers. Plus Frank owes me a milk stout
Looking forward to your future posts.
Kate

At least one Kate. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Thank you Mel for your message, indeed great memories.

Jacquie and I live quietly in Kwa Zulu Natal. I occupy the time both reading and writing. Most lucky to have several books, co-authored by Ron Lock and self on the subject, published in UK.
The primary source material was gained from being allowed access to a multitude of records held at the Royal Archives, Windsor, on the subject. We travelled and spent a week at Windsor.
This is not intended as an ad. for the book, as the publishers sold out a couple of years ago.
But it did keep the brain active! And copies of the Source material are now well preserved in my library.


Kind regards,

Peter Q

Kate and Frank
What ho! I've been abroad for a wee while and hors de combat. I seem to have missed this thread. To return briefly to Kate's initial post as to why Barry did not report more fully from his position on Mkwene. I don't think the weather conditions (misty, yes, and the greater the distance the more obscure a far-off enemy would become invisible), the extent to which the landscape has changed naturally and by man's influence (Mike McCabe got that notion from me, I got it from FWDJ, he got it from a geology lecturer-acquaintance), and the precise location of the picquet impairing his visibility should be ignored.
I think it also worth applying the old Sherlock Holmes analogy of why didn't the dog bark in the night time. Barry (and his officers) would not have been so stupid as to accompany the two NNH troops if he had really seen thousands of Zulus lying in wait across the plateau. Ergo, for whatever reason, he HAD NOT seen them. What Barry actually did and at what time would seen to make self-explanatory his actions and the logic of others' actions.

Hi Inky I've been pouring over my maps and accounts
Can I just refer to this statement of yours in one of your previous posts:-

Quote :

Great Question I did say and provided a photo of the right horn moving into position at around 930am so from 930am till the first gunshots of the discovery they remained some were close to that gully just above the Manzimyama stream which was indicated in my photo. So lets go to Essex he did see one regiment moving in the shape of the horn in a flanking move  exactly how Ian said on his tour but that was one regiment not the whole right horn that regiment was the Nokenke  which moved up with the umCijo at 9am to the dead ground beside that donga. Uguku describes this in his testimony " . We were not checked at all by the skirmishers, but continued our march on the camp until the artillery opened up on us, and the first shell took effect in the ranks of my regiment, just above the kraal of Baza. The Nokenki then ran out in the shape of a horn towards the kraal of Nyumyeni, on the road between Isandula and Rorke’s Drift, followed by the Nodwengu."    
this matches Essex testimony perfectly Uguku would have been very close to Mkwene to see this happen and he ends with the Nodwengu these  are those 3 regiments that Higginson saw at 930 moving behind Isandlwana which came from the northen banks of the Manzimyama stream indicated on my photo

I've been picking apart Uguku's statement.
Uguku is with the Umcijo. (also known as the uKhandempemvu)
You say they were in position by 9am near Mkwene.
Uguku doesn’t say that. He claims they were in the valley. He climbs  on the sound of gunfire but when he sees the Ngobamakosi  "quietly encamped lower down the valley" does nothing more.
The next we hear he is engaged with "a body of horse (Robert and Raws men?) and with the Uve and Ngobamakosi  engaged on the left (how does he know this) advances forward and begins his march on the camp then the heavy firing begins. This would put him and the Umcijo near the Ngwebeni at thetime of their discovery by Robert’s and Raw at approx 11.30am.

TNA,WO32/7713 statement of a Nokhenke deserter says "The Umcityu on the left centre and the Nokenke and Nodwengu higher up on the right , under the hill, were making a direct attack on the left of the camp.As part of the Nokhenke he also claims they were forced into action by a body of horsemen (Robert's and Raw). This would not place the Nokhenke north of Mkwene at 9am.

With the geography and undualting ground he would not have been able to see anything going on behind Isandwana mountain never mind a kraal near the Isandlwana road nor or the shape of the Zulu formation in that location. He was being pinned down by a murderous fire at this point.

Kate

As  an interesting aside  you can also read Uguku’s statement a different way and place him to the left of the chest alongside the Ngobamakosi and Uve. Give it a go.
Reading  the account  Uguku states he is with the Kandampemvu (or Umcijo)
He is positioned lower down the Ngwebene and moves up briefly on the sound of gunfire. Whilst there he sees "a  body of horse"  Durnford's men. He doesn't say he returned to his original position but gets involved in the action.
"We saw a body of horse coming up the hill from the Isandlwana side. We opened fire on them"
(Lt Davies confirms this "We looked up to the ridge on our front and we could see the enemy in great numbers about 1500 yards steadily advancing and firing at us")
He says :-
“The Uve and Ngobamakosi became engaged on our left with the enemy skirmishers”
To his personal left? How did he know this unless he saw it? He refers, later in his account, to the Umbonambi, half the Undi, the Ngobamakosi and Uve being on his left.
TNA,WO32/7713 statement of a Nokhenke deserter says "The Umcityu on the left centre and the Nokenke and Nodwengu higher up on the right , under the hill, were making a direct attck on the left of the camp
He then goes on to describe his movements swinging round to the left or possibly going over the top buy Ithusi and following up Durnford's men.
There are five kraals by the road in front of Durnford's donga. Could one be Baza's
The sentence "The Nokenke then ran out in the shape of a horn towards the kraal of Nyenzani on the road between Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift"  could just refer to, as Keith Smith suggests, the continuation of the road eastward beyond the camp. (look at the Manual of Field Ops there are 3 kraals by the road)
Pinned down in front of the Nyogane donga Uguku could have looked right and witnessed this move by the Nokenke coming off the Nyoni ridge.
The Mangwane (mounted natives) who shelter in a donga causing them to “fall very fast” are Durnfords .
“ We shouted  Izulu and made for the donga, driving out the Mgwene ” Durnford’s men falling back ?
"the infantry then opened fire on us" Pope's company?
It sort of works. Read it, look at a map and Give it a go.

Afternoon Julian
Hope you had a good trip.
The Mkwene 'view', ever since I was up there has always been an itch I've found difficult to scratch.
Thats a fair point about not seeing anyone across the Nquthu plateau.
On that note do you think Barry saw, as certain theories claim, the right horn going round in front of him early that morning?
Kate

Hi Kate,

I must beg to differ on Uguku. I believe the Amangwane he refers to are the actual Amangwane, ie. Zikhali Horse.

Key to Uguku's statement are the following... "the Mangwane being supported by the infantry, who were some distance in the rear."

Lieut. Charles Raw: "About this time the enemy advanced in great force in front of the camp, or should I say more to the left; I turned my troop and engaged them, the troops drawn up in the camp firing over us."

This points to a position being occupied ahead of the British frontline trace. Malindi, too, seems to support this.

Hi Kate

I think the best way to handle this is I skype you or Facetime or Whats App you and go though it.

Kate,
Thanks, I had a good trip but a tiring one and now I'm short of time (as always). Re your point about what Barry saw of the right horn...there was that message from the picquet earlier on about the Zulus splitting into three columns, two moving north-east and one north-west...but that must have been viewed at an extremely long distance and from where Barry was these directions can be no more than vague estimations of movements - they cannot refer specifically to a move by the right horn to get round the back of Isandhlwana.
By the time the right horn did make such a move, it would have been perfectly visible to Dyson, Cavaye et al., although curiously from Barry's position before his men fled down the spur, I'm not so sure that he would have been able to see it.

From Essex statement.
I HAVE the honour to forward for the information of the Lieutenant-General Commanding, an account of an action which took place near the Isandula Hills on the 22nd instant. After the departure of the main body of the column, nothing unusual occurred in camp until about 8 a.m. when a report arrived from a picquet stationed at a point about 1,500 yards distant, on a hill to the north of the camp, that a body of the enemy's troops could be seen approaching from the north-east.
Theres no comment on how close that body came but as they aproached from the north east, quite possibly over from the Qwabe valley, they could easily be a portion of the men that had been witnessed during the prievious evening by Dartnell trying to locate the impi. Its highly possible on aproaching from the North east/East that they deviated left instead of right ( a matter of a couple of degrees) and missed the entrance to the valley. As this body disapeared shortly after one could theorise that they entered the valley from the west.

  Lieutenant-Colonel Pulleine, 1st Battalion 24th Regiment, commanding in camp, thereupon caused the whole of the troops available to assemble near the eastern side of the camp, facing towards the reported direction of the enemy's approach. He also dispatched a mounted man with a report to the column, presumed to be about 12 or 15 miles distant.
Shortly after 9 a.m. a small body of the enemy showed itself just over the crest of the hills, in the direction they were expected, but retired a few minutes afterwards, and disappeared. Could this be a possible reference to the group lead by Mehlokazulu?

  Soon afterwards information arrived from the picquet before alluded to, that the enemy was in three columns, two of which were retiring, but were still in view; the third column had disappeared in a north-westerly direction.
After Mehlokazulus return Nyshingwayo ordered the regiments to start moving out. I would theorise that they moved out of the Ngwebini valley splitting into three columns, the right bore of to the valley cut into the side of the Nqutu range, and the other two further splittin, one to the dead ground bellow Mabaso and the second proceeding on a few hundred metre to the huge area of dead ground on the tip of the iThusi ridge overlooking the Qwabe valley.

The army would have then moved forward to a forward attack position, all relativly well hidden untill a call to move forward as made by Ntshingwayo. As it was Raw interceeded.

Just theorising on possible reasons for the sightings.

Cheers

Switching to Frank's last post...I don't think that an enemy approach down or across the Qwabe valley to the extreme east of the camp would be a reasonable assumption based on the fact that Pulleine's response was to assemble his troops facing towards the REPORTED DIRECTION OF THE ENEMY'S APPROACH, viz. the escarpment, i.e. NOT the plain south of the Conical Koppie towards which the Qwabe valley debouched.
Certainly thought, Frank, you are quite right about attributing the distant manoeuvrings of the Zulus to their positioning themselves in the Ngwebeni valley. I don't think anyone could or would dispute that.

Hi Frank and Julian

After giving this a lot more thought Frank, I am convinced the 5,000 Higginson and others saw, that moved behind Isandlwana took the route I indicated on my photo you need a lot of space to conceal 5,000 infact it was more like 3,500 but never the less the right horn. Remember this was the same time Chard spots his Zulus, I think he saw hundreds not thousands and they to moved behind Isandlwana

Concerning  the manoeuvrings of the Zulus to their positioning themselves in the Ngwebeni valley remember there is around 8,000 not in the valley.

Morning Julian
I wasnt suggesting they would have journeyed down the Qwabe, (extreme east) merely crossed it at its Northern point just south of Nyezi that would have brought them over the small ridge and entered the plateau moving arguably towards the camp from the north east. It could also be argued that this group was the one mentioned by Barker who were aproached but backed away.
Inky
I appreciate your points but potentially there were multiple sightings so we cant look for a 'one size fits all' solution.

Hi Frank,
OK, your wording misled me! That argument (Today at 4.25 am) makes more sense. And I agree about your last point.

Hopefully I shall be at iSandlwana next week, I will spend some time going over the ground again

Quote :

Hopefully I shall be at iSandlwana next week,

(To quote Hook  in the film as he looks at Sgt Maxwell)

"You lucky B*****D"

Kate

At the moment Im struggling to contact shane, RD Hotel or the lodge.

Kate
Language! Where WERE you brought up!?!

The City Road.
K

I never knew Lindisfarne was a city?  

JY

"..ear. I think there's some Mead in Surgeon Reynold's medical cabinet"
H