WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Zulu Film Quote Lieutenant Bromhead :If 1200 men couldn't hold a defensive position this morning, what chance have we with 100?
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» James Cooper Colonial Volunteer?
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 4:05 pm by John Young

» Sandall military family
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 3:57 pm by John Young

» Edwin Killick
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 3:43 pm by John Young

» Dr Jolly Naval Brigade?
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 3:42 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» John Heard HMS Captain 1870 disaster
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 3:41 pm by gardner1879

» J Ashmore Webster Royal Engineers?
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 3:32 pm by gardner1879

» Lieutenant Claud Henry Alexander 99th Regiment
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 3:28 pm by gardner1879

» Captain Mellish a Hanoven Colonial Volunteer?
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 3:25 pm by John Young

» Adolf Friedrich Schiel
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 3:23 pm by 90th

» Private 65B/2128 Walter Stanton 94th Regiment fought Red Indians with Buffalo Bill
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 3:19 pm by 90th

» John Palmer and the Prince Imperial
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 3:02 pm by 90th

» Drum-Major A.T. Rixon, 58th
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 2:55 pm by gardner1879

» Hayter 17th Lancers
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 2:38 pm by 90th

» Private 2159 John Cureton 99th Regiment
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 2:28 pm by gardner1879

» Brigade Surgeon Patrick Walter Stafford, R.A.M.C
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 2:15 pm by gardner1879

» M'Cartney family son killed
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 2:06 pm by gardner1879

» Walter Stavert 90th Regiment
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 1:46 pm by gardner1879

» Frank Newton, C.M.G.
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 1:35 pm by gardner1879

» Francis Mordaunt Shairp Royal Marine Light Infantry
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 1:29 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» Lance Sergeant 2242 C Baskett 2/21st Regiment
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 1:28 pm by gardner1879

» Colour Sergeant 2451 Thomas Palmer 3/60th Regiment
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 12:56 pm by gardner1879

» 1st Dragoon Guards group and others photograph. A Quiz
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 12:48 pm by gardner1879

» Private Lloyd 17th Lancers
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 12:33 pm by gardner1879

» Mackay Army Service Corp Transport
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 12:26 pm by gardner1879

» Major A. H. Tylden-Pattenson, East Kent Regiment
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 12:15 pm by gardner1879

» Walter Horace Spragg
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 12:05 pm by gardner1879

» Lieut-General Sir Leslie Rundle.
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 11:58 am by gardner1879

» Sergeant 994 Mark Faulkner 1st Dragoon Guards
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 11:56 am by gardner1879

» The Devil’s Pass at Hlobane
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 11:51 am by gardner1879

» Pipe Major
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 10:17 am by Eddie

» Private 25B/2654 John Harris 24th Regiment Thomas Murray
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 8:42 am by Kenny

» Lieutenant William Edward Day Spring 1/24th The Spring family
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 4:05 am by 90th

» Lieutenant Colonel Thomas Maxwell
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyToday at 3:46 am by 90th

» Brothers Sears
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyYesterday at 8:38 pm by Eddie

» Mr William Withycombe Naval Brigade?
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyYesterday at 3:57 pm by gardner1879

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
The Death of the Prince Imperial Zulu War 1879
Top posters
90th
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
littlehand
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
ADMIN
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
1879graves
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
rusteze
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
John Young
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
John
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
gardner1879
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
Eddie
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
John Young
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
90th
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
Petty Officer Tom
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
rai
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
Kenny
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
1879graves
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_leftTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers BarTrooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Bar_right 
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Durnford was he capable.5
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
2022 Police George harford 24th Prince drift Jones Woolfryes payne james martini smith Durnford taylor Isandlwana horse zulu henry Natal Franklin Mounted spalding brown Russell john
 

 Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers

Go down 
+3
90th
aussie inkosi
WeekendWarrior
7 posters
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior


Posts : 240
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptyFri Feb 11, 2022 8:16 pm

Trooper Christian Hayhow served in the Natal Carbineers and was killed in action on January 22, 1879. His story is particularly interesting and tragic, and deserves to be reviewed.

Hayhow was engaged to a well-off young woman out of Pietermaritzburg. The Carbineers were paraded in the market square prior to departing for the front, and were addressed by Lord Chelmsford himself before marching out to 1/24th Band playing several tunes, including ‘The Girl I Left Behind Me.’ Presuming Hayhow’s fiancée was present, this must have been the last time she saw him alive.

Trooper Hayhow accompanied the main invasion force. It appears that Major Dartnell requested volunteers among his mounted force to accompany his reconnaissance. It’s possible that Hayhow accompanied Dartnell, and returned to camp as one of his messengers. From the amount of riding he did the next few days, he was clearly well mounted.
On Jan. 22, Troopers Whitelaw was on vedette duty when he arrived back at the Column HQ Office to report to Lieut. Coghill of large numbers of Zulus to the north of the camp. In response, Lieut. Col. Pulleine dispatched Trooper Hayhow with a message annotated 8:05 a.m. “Report just come in that the Zulus are advancing in force from left front of Camp.”
This message was carried by Trooper Hayhow, who, well mounted, galloped off along the wagon track. It stands to reason that he was selected as he roughly knew the position of Lord Chelmsford and Major Dartnell, having returned from the latter’s position the previous evening.

We know that Hayhow successfully delivered his message to Major Clery at 9:30 a.m. who subsequently showed it to Lord Chelmsford.
Trooper Hayhow was later observed with the mounted men skirmishing. Trooper Fred Symons, Natal Carbineers, recorded that:

“One Zulu ran down onto the flats across which we had ridden from Matyana’s, wither he was now making for, but Trooper Hayhow rode after him and after a mile or two chase, captured and brought him back.”

Trooper S.B. Jones, Newcastle Mounted Rifles (Natal Mercury, Jan. 22, 1929) wrote:

“Anyway, about two o'clock that afternoon the bugle sounded, so we rushed for our horses. Then I saw the Colonel (Dartnell) talking to young Hayhoe, of Maritzburg, who had escaped from Isandhlwana and brought the news of the disaster to him. We started back immediately, meeting the oncoming reinforcements who were given orders to go straight back. We reached Isandhlwana after dark, and it was not before morning that the weary reinforcements joined us.”

Trooper Hayhow was killed in action at Isandlwana and his body located somewhere on the battlefield, so this simply cannot be true. He must be confused on the timing of the matter, as this report was given in late age. Nonetheless, it does appear that there is some truth in Jones’s recollection, and that Trooper Hayhow did report in to Major Dartnell.

How did Trooper Hayhow return to Isandlwana camp? He doesn’t appear to have carried a message, and there was little tactical purpose in his return. I suspect he accompanied Maj. Stuart Smith, Capt. Alan Gardner, Lieut. MacDowel, Lieut. and Adjutant Dyer, Lieut. Thomas Griffith, (possibly) Lieut. Andrews, and their escort of ten Mounted Infantrymen, riding back to camp along the wagon track.

Troopers Barker and Hawkins had arrived back at camp with another report of large enemy presence to the left front of camp. On their way back, they had noticed Zulus advancing slowly and had spoken to Major Russell and the Rocket Battery. Years later, Barker wrote:

“Hawkins and I reported to an officer, staff, I believe, about the advance of the Zulus, and as we left camp to return to Lieut. Scott, another Carbineer, I am not sure of his name (Hayhow), galloped in and reported Zulus in every direction advancing. He was then sent on to the General with some report, and was never seen again alive by any in camp, although he is reported to have given a dispatch to the General, who sent him back to camp, at which the poor fellow never arrived.”

We can say with some confidence that the messenger with Pulleine and Gardner’s final message was none other than Private Richard Port, 1/24th, assigned to the Mounted Infantry. It would make little sense to send Hayhow on yet another wild ride back to Lord Chelmsford; I believe Barker had events slightly conflated in old age and that while he did see Hayhow arrive back in camp with a warning a little before noon, he was confused with Hayhow’s morning message.

Major Smith and company, riding back along the wagon track, would have been in position to see large numbers of Zulus moving about the iNyoni. It would only make sense to order one man to ride ahead with a SITREP to the Column Headquarters; hence Hayhow galloping in to the Column Office in view of Barker.

I do have a few questions:

Does anyone have more information on Christian Hayhow? A fiancée name, perhaps? Any idea where on the battlefield his body was discovered? I personally need to do some more digging on the messages sent back by Major Dartnell to establish if Hayhow may have been among their numbers.

Back to top Go down
aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


Posts : 373
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 57
Location : MELBOURNE

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 3:10 am

Great subject Weekend Warrior

After giving this a great deal of time studying Barkers testimony. We know Trooper Barker and Hawkins vidette location being Itusi and Whitelaw and his vidette partner is un named and I have concluded their location being the center of the ridgeline between Itusi and Mkwene.

Barker wrote concerning Hayhow  the time line for this is 8am 
"I am not sure of his name (Hayhow), galloped in and reported Zulus in every direction advancing. He was then sent on to the General with some report, and was never seen again alive by any in camp, although he is reported to have given a dispatch to the General, who sent him back to camp, at which the poor fellow never arrived" 

Hayhow is clearly mentioned as galloping in and reporting Zulus in every direction he reported this to camp HQ this I can only conclude he was on Vidette duty to view all these Zulus

This same timeline matches Barker another instance in his testimony
"Whitelaw reported a large army advancing, ‘thousands’ I remember him distinctly stating, and he was immediately sent back to camp with the report. This would be about eight a.m. He returned with a message to Lieut. Scott that were to watch the enemy carefully and send back reports of their movements"

It is interesting but Whitelaw's vidette partner could well have been no other but Trooper Hayhow
Back to top Go down
WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior


Posts : 240
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 3:27 am

I don't see how you're reaching that conclusion. Barker is very clear on the order of alerts:

Circa 0800- Whitelaw reports to HQ of large number of Zulus advancing. Returns to Lieut. Scott with instructions to observe and report.

Barker is very clear that Hayhow arrived around noon at Column Headquarters, just before all hell broke loose. Look at his statement closely.

Hawkins and Barker sent back to camp. En route met Rocket Battery. They then reported in to a Staff Officer and as they departed Hayhow arrived with report of Zulus advancing. Barker believes he was then dispatched to LC with report although in this he must be mistaken; Hayhow would be returning around 12.

Confirmation that Barker is referring to a noon incident is in his next sentence that refers to hearing firing and seeing the NNMC in skirmishing order.
Back to top Go down
WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior


Posts : 240
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 3:28 am

Perhaps I'm misreading your statement?
Back to top Go down
aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


Posts : 373
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 57
Location : MELBOURNE

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 3:51 am

Barker mentions Hayhow galloping in to camp and then is sent to Chelmsford 8:10am message

For Hayhow to gallop in  with the report Zulus are in all directions must only mean he was on Vidette duty.


For Hayhow to see these Zulus he would have been on either Nyoni Ridgeline or Itusi 
Barker and Hawkins are on Itusi
Whitelaw and Most likely Hayhow are on the Nyoni Ridge
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10588
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Trooper Christian Hayhow NC .    Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 3:56 am

Hi Inks
Ron Lock in his book ' Isandlwana; The Revelations Of A Disaster '  has Whitelaw & Hayhow on Nyezi ! page 130  , regarding Barker in his statement in Stalker Page 99 and I quote .... '' We left camp at 4am , and the Carbineers were posted to the direct front and left of the camp , from three to five miles away , Hawkins ,  my bosom friend , and myself were posted on a hill to the extreme front , quite six miles from camp , and arrived on the hill about sunrise . After being posted for about a quarter of an hour we noticed a lot of mounted men in the distance , and on their coming nearer we saw that they were trying to surround us . We gave the usual signal , but had to retire off the hill post haste , as we discovered they were zulus . We retired to Lt Scott , about two miles nearer to camp , and informed him of what we had seen , and he decided to come back with us , but before we had gone far we saw zulus on the hill we just left , and others advancing from the left flank , where two other Vedettes , Whitelaw and another , had been obliged to retire from '' . To me Barker is on Qwabe not Ithusi Barker states they were the furtherest from camp , Ithusi isn't 6 miles from Isandlwana , from memory Lock and Smith ... possibly Jackson (?)also state Barker was on Qwabe and ....not ithusi as you believe .
90th Salute
Back to top Go down
Online
WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior


Posts : 240
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 4:03 am

I suspect Barker witnessed Hayhow but was mistaken that he was dispatched back out. Barker is entirely certain Hayhow arrived around noon just after their final message to HQ. If Hayhow was accompanying Gardner along the track he would have seen movement along the iNyoni; hence a need to be sent ahead with an update to the camp. Remember, this all occurred just moments before firing broke out.
Back to top Go down
aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


Posts : 373
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 57
Location : MELBOURNE

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 5:08 am

The Military Survey Map is the only evidence we have of the vidette locations

We have Lieutenant Davies confirming Lieutenant Scott is on Amatushane  in his words the pointed hill

the other two loactions being the Nyoni ridge and Itusi was vidette by the Carbineers " the Carbineers were posted to the direct front and left of the camp , from three to five miles away

Trooper Barker then says  he and Hawkins was placed further out being 6 miles which gives us the impression he is on Qwabi.

Then if he is on Qwabi he is certainly not on Qwabi when he sees the following " As Hawkins and I were returning to the vidette outpost we noticed the mounted Basutos to the extreme left of the camp in skirmishing order, and masses of the Zulus on all the hills"
He can only be on top of the notch or Itusi not on Qwabi

He may have started on Qwabi,i but it was not his vidette location all that morning.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8360
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 5:26 am

And what about Dirk Dinkelman?
Back to top Go down
aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


Posts : 373
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 57
Location : MELBOURNE

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 5:33 am

Please Explain Frank
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8360
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 5:38 am

There is strong evidence that Dinkelman was the first to report the zulu attack. He was also on Vedette duty.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8360
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 5:41 am

Morning inky, sorry forgetting my manners. I dont think Barker was 100% sure in naming Hayhow. If he was wrong it does change the story a tad.
Back to top Go down
aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


Posts : 373
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 57
Location : MELBOURNE

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 5:48 am

The way I understand it Hayhow came in around 8am with news of Zulus, he is then sent to Chelmsford with the 8:10am message  everything after that is a mystery, We know for certain he dies but his body is not identified in camp with the other Carbineers
Back to top Go down
WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior


Posts : 240
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 5:50 am

Look at Barker again. He states Hayhow arrived just before the fighting kicked off and was then sent to LC. He is almost certainly wrong in the timing of either the receiving or the departure.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8360
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 5:59 am

Barker.
“Hawkins and I reported to an officer, staff, I believe, about the advance of the Zulus, and as we left camp to return to Lieut. Scott, another Carbineer, I am not sure of his name (Hayhow), galloped in and reported Zulus in every direction advancing. He was then sent on to the General with some report, and was never seen again alive by any in camp, although he is reported to have given a dispatch to the General, who sent him back to camp, at which the poor fellow never arrived.”
Potentialy then Hayhow did not get back to camp?

Quite probably Inky is correct, Hayhow was on Vedette, saw the zulu advancing from a different perspective than Barker, reported to the camp and was then sent to Chelmsford.

There are two reports from Essex of reports, Im leaning towards them being from Dinkelman first then Hayhow. Finally when Barker delivers his report, the messenger is sent to Chelmsford.

Back to top Go down
WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior


Posts : 240
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 6:00 am

Frank, look at the totality of the passage. Hayhow arrived close to noon, just before all hell popped loose. Unless Barker was wildly mistaken on the order of events.
Back to top Go down
aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


Posts : 373
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 57
Location : MELBOURNE

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 6:01 am

Hi Mike

here is the statement in question

, I am not sure of his name (Hayhow), galloped in and reported Zulus in every direction advancing. He was then sent on to the General with some report, and was never seen again alive by any in camp,


Notice he says he first reported Zulus in every direction and then is sent out to Chelmsford this timeline is 8:10am once leaving he is never seen again.


where does it say he arrives back before the fighting kicked off.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8360
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 6:20 am

Mike
Its the conflation of times and events from Barker that causes the confusion. I believe Barker had two visits to the camp, 8 and 12ish.
Its really the only explanation, if he saw Hayhow that is.
Put that into the equation and things start to get clearer.

Cheer
Back to top Go down
WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior


Posts : 240
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 6:22 am

Oh I agree Barker went to HQ twice, at 8 and 12. I just think he saw Hayhow at the 12 o'clock call, although to be fair both make sense if we assume his memory wasn't perfect
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8360
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 7:34 am

Mike, Im pretty certain his memory of 'events' was pretty good, if a trifle jumbled. There is generally confirmation from other sources, I do say generally. Its his times and distances that are out.
Cheers
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10588
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Trooper Christian Hayhow NC .    Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 7:37 am

Hi Frank
Several people are wary of Barker and his timings etc .
90th
Back to top Go down
Online
90th

90th


Posts : 10588
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Trooper Christian Hayhow NC .    Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 7:48 am

Sorry Inks , Barker states he was heading back to his vidette position ( Qwabe ) with Lt Scott & Hawkins(?) , they hadn't travelled far , when , he.... Barker states seeing zulu's on the hill they'd left previously ( Qwabe ) , certainly Barker is talking of Durnfords Mtd Force skirmishing after they've been forced to withdraw , Barker , Scott & Hawkins (?)would be able to see Durnford's mtd men returning while they were attempting to head back to Qwabe !? .
90th
Back to top Go down
Online
aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


Posts : 373
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 57
Location : MELBOURNE

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 8:45 am

So are you saying Barker was on Qwabi all morning ?
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8360
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 9:05 am

The eastern plain must have been like a bloody express way over the last couple of hours.
Hayhow back and forth.
Gardner and party
Lonsdale wobbling around
Browne and his NNC
Durnford at the Northern end
Have I missed anyone, apart from Uber that is?
If they all travelled by the track how come they didnt bump into each other? The timeline would be interesting to try and recreate.
One of Gary's favourite things Joker
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3146
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 9:22 am

Mike
What's your source for Hayhow's name being Christian?
Aussie
It's not only the military survey which gives vedette locations.  There's also Mansell's sketch.
Frank
Yup you have left out LC's Reconnaissance waggons.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:50 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


Posts : 373
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 57
Location : MELBOURNE

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 9:28 am

Hi Julian

I have never seen Roysten's Sketch

can you post it please, its new to me.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10588
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Trooper Christian Hayhow NC .    Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 9:34 am

Hayhow in the 3 Roll's I have list his Christian name beginning with H . scratch
90th
Back to top Go down
Online
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8360
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 9:38 am

Dartnell also has the vedette locations, admitedly from the night before.
Back to top Go down
aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


Posts : 373
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 57
Location : MELBOURNE

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 9:43 am

Well in "FOR GOD QUEEN AND COLONY"
on page 195 its Hayhow, H
on page 205 its Hayhow, C, P

Even Terry Sole is confused
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10588
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Trooper Christian Hayhow NC .    Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 9:53 am

Inks Very Happy Very Happy , look on page 219 Sole has him again as H Shocked Shocked
90th . Very Happy
Back to top Go down
Online
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8360
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 10:09 am

The London Gazette 15th March 1879 lists him as C. Hayhow
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 2182
Join date : 2021-01-04

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 11:26 am

Aha its that Barker chap again Rolling Eyes
In relation to who was were. If we treat Barker and all he proclaimed as gospal then this is the only way it works in relation to his postioning.
This is from a post in February 2021 which was all brightly coloured and most probably did not get through because of the glare. I've toned it down a bit and added some amendments. My comments in bold and Barker's in inverted commas :-

"I was on Vedette duty next day with every available man under Lieut. Scott.  We left camp at about 4 a.m., and the Carbineers were posted to the direct front and left of the camp, from three to five miles away."
 
Whitelaw and a.n. other is posted on iThusi  ( 2.5 miles away  though with the climb up this could be about 3miles) and Hawkins and Barker are on Nyezi. 5.2 miles away. With Chelmsford in the South East, the north-eastern post of Nyezi could have been chosen to cover that area. However in another account he claims he was on a hill two miles from any of the others. Qwabe is approx two miles from Itusi, as is Amatutshane. Nyezi is further, just under 3 miles however.

"Hawkins, my bosom friend, and myself were posted on a hill to the extreme front , quite six miles from camp, and arrived on the hill about sunrise."  

It is  5.29 miles as the crow flies from the camp to Nyezi which, with a bit of Donga work, could seem like six to Barker.

"After being posted for about a quarter of an hour we noticed a lot of mounted men in the distance, and on their coming nearer we saw that they were  trying to surround us.  We gave the usual signal, (to Whitelaw) but had to retire off the hill post haste, as we discovered they were Zulus.  We retired  to Lieut. Scott, about two miles nearer camp, and informed him of what we had seen,"

Two miles nearer the camp would put Scott just to the south of the base of Ithusi 3 miles out.

"and he decided to come back with us, but before we had gone far we saw Zulus on the hill we had just left, (Nyezi) and others advancing from the left flank where two other videttes, Whitelaw and another, had been obliged to retire from."
 
Whitelaw  retiring  from iThusi

"Whitelaw reported a large army advancing, “Thousands” I remember him distinctly stating,"

These could be Zulus seen spilling out of the Ngwebani valley to the north

"and he was immediately sent back to the camp with the report.  This would be about eight a.m.  He returned with a message to Lieut. Scott that we were to watch the enemy carefully and send back reports of their movements." 

To go back to the camp, give his report then, after been given a reply, riding back, say 30 to 40 minutes at speed on horseback . At an average walking speed of 1.67 mph it takes 2hrs and 10 minutes to walk from the camp to the middle of the old ‘historical’ notch by iThusi.

"Shortly afterwards, numbers of Zulus being seen on all the hills to the left and front, Trooper Swift and another were sent back to report.  The Zulus then remained on the hills, and about two hundred of them advanced to within three hundred yards of us, but on our advancing they retired out of sight, and a few of us went up to this hill"

The Zulus have appeared on iThusi and the eastern end of the Inyoni ridge. Upon the Zulus retiring Barker and others go back up onto iThusi or the Inyoni ridge  to see what is happening. Ithusi would be a very  difficult climb but there is a track I discovered in 2015 that goes through new woodland to the west of the geographical cul-de-sac of the ‘historical notch’ . It is easy going and in 2015 we followed some Zulu herds boys who were mounted on mules.

"where the Zulus had disappeared, and on a further hill, at about six hundred yards distance, we saw a large army sitting down."  

A further hill? There is a further hill, Mabaso, but this is a lot further than 6oo yards so they are somewhere to the north by the Ngwebani valley?

"We returned to Lieut. Scott, who was then about three miles from camp,"

So Scott seems to be still at the base of Ithusi which is three miles from the camp but from the last sentence could have moved or be moving  back to the camp.

"and reported what we had seen.  Hawkins and I were then sent back to camp to report a large army to the left front of the camp.  On our way back we noticed the Zulus advancing slowly, and when about a mile and a half from the camp we met the rocket battery, who enquired the enemy’s whereabouts."

If Barker took the direct route back from Scott at the base of iThusi to the camp, he would pass between Amatutshane and the iNyoni ridge which would mean the rocket battery were travelling towards him in the same area. This route is difficult though as he would have had  to have negotiated the ‘fingers’ of two large dongas.

"We advised the officer to proceed to where Lieut. Scott was stationed, but he asked if he could get up the hill to his left.  We informed him that the Zulus were advancing towards that hill and most probably would be seen on it within half an hour."

I can imagine Barker pointing to Scott at the base of Ithusi and Russell looking left and saying "well can I not get up there?"

Well done if you got this far. To keep this post short(ish) more comments on the next one about videttes and Hayhow.
Back to top Go down
Online
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3146
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 11:39 am

AUSSIE
You'll find Mansell's sketch on p. 234 of L&Q's Zulu victory.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3146
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 12:55 pm

My own inclination from the primary sources is towards the initial being C. I can find no confirmation or suggestion that it stands for Christian. I'd really appreciate knowing if anyone can!
Back to top Go down
WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior


Posts : 240
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 2:56 pm

On the memorial commissioned in Pietermaritzburg, the initial is C. I doubt his fiancee would have allowed an error. I came across Christian somehow; it's in my notes but for some reason I never list the source. Let me do a bit of digging and get back to you.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8360
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 3:19 pm

Kate your missing two key piece's of evidence that puts Scott on top of the ridge. Not the base.
Back to top Go down
WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior


Posts : 240
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 3:21 pm

Frank, are you referring to Davies placing Scott on Amatutshane?
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3146
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 4:21 pm

Frank
Quite right. You can't see much from the base of Itusi if you're a scout.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3146
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 4:26 pm

Mike
If I recall correctly, a popular historian gave Hayhow the forename Christian in his book. It was unsourced of course and I doubt very much it has any basis in research.
Note that there are errors on the PMB memorial so we cannot place complete faith in the initial C.
Hayhow's fiancée may have been a shrinking Violet.
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 2182
Join date : 2021-01-04

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 5:18 pm

Sorry Frank
I should have quantified that the above ideas were using JUST Barker's account and no other in order to try and get the distances and directions in his accounts to fit.

However saying that. Barker comes off his hill (ie down it wether its Qwabe or Nyezi) and meets Scott, which means he meets him on the plain. Also Whitelaw retires from his post on Itusi which is Scotts left flank if he was initially returning to Nyezi with Barker
Where then does Barker say that Scott goes up onto Itusi or the Inyoni ridge? Later on after Barker sees the Zulu he returns to Scott, so Scott clearly didn't go up with him.
Put Scott at the base of Itusi, Barker on Nyezi and his account starts to make sense otherwise its an inaccurate jumble.

Frank Quite right. You can't see much from the base of Itusi if you're a scout. wrote:

Sorry Julian you've lost me there.
Which scout was at the base of Itusi?

In order to make Barker 'fit' Scott is initially on Amatutshane at the start of the day  but then comes down and starts moving between his vedettes possibly checking on their welfare when Barker first encounters him.
Barker's distances 'just don't make no sense' if Scott is still sitting up on Amatutshane.
To begin with all the vedettes were on high points doing their jobs and then Scott starts moving between them when he is encountered at the base of Itusi by Barker.

However I have a problem with anyone being on Nyezi for reasons I'll explain once I've found the info.
Back to top Go down
Online
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3146
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 5:27 pm

Mike
for what it's worth I checked the Birth Registry Indexes and Census Returns from 1850 and found no Christian Hayhow. There were a couple of Charles Hayhows but it's impossible to say whether one of them was our man.
Kate
No scout there. I was just echoing Frank's post.
Back to top Go down
aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


Posts : 373
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 57
Location : MELBOURNE

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 5:49 pm

As far as I am concerned there is a possibility Barker started on Qwabi, seeing he stated he was 6 miles out and the next closest to him was 5 miles out. There is no hard evidence anyone was placed on Nyezi

The problem with having Barker on Qwabi when he sees the Basutos later in the morming he is referring to Raw and Roberts not Davies and Higginson their troops where Edendale and Sikhali if I remember correctly

Barker is on Itusi when he sights that army that is for certain.
Back to top Go down
1879graves

1879graves


Posts : 3309
Join date : 2009-03-03
Location : Devon

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 6:55 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:

Note that there are errors on the PMB memorial so we cannot place complete faith in the initial C.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Western Daily Press 17 March 1879

Hi Julian

Just out of interest, I came across a list of KIA at Isandlwana published in the Western Daily Press.
It does list Hayhow with the initial of C.
The other thing is if you look at the list quickly you can read Christian Hayhow, but Christian is 2 lines above!

Just throwing something into the unclear waters.

Andy
Back to top Go down
http://zuluwar1879.tribalpages.com
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 2182
Join date : 2021-01-04

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 7:05 pm

I think you may have made the waters a little clearer Andy Wink
Back to top Go down
Online
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3146
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 7:17 pm

Andy
Remember that the Western Daily Press has taken that list from the list that appeared in the London Gazette (and elsewhere). Personally, as I said above, I believe that the initial was C in preference to the other options, simply because it appears on most official lists as being so. What it stands for, however, I don't know.
You may well be right that wherever Mike saw 'Christian Hayhow' printed, it could have derived from a simple misreading / conflation of two lines such as you describe.
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 2182
Join date : 2021-01-04

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 7:34 pm

Re vedette positioning this is my problem with Nyezi. Clery:-

"The cavalry outposts mounted at daybreak and remained on duty till sunset.
The videttes were posted on very commanding ground on the front and flanks of the camp. The distance of the line of videttes circling round the front of the camp was about 3 miles from the camp itself and with a good glass the positions of each vidette could be seen.
The position of the cavalry outposts line was, in my opinion, excellent, and as long as the videttes did their duty to suprise the camp was impossible"

That rules out Nzeyi as it is much further than 3 miles and I don't think is visible from the camp.
Qwabe is just inside this 3 mile radius as is Ithusi.
Back to top Go down
Online
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3146
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySat Feb 12, 2022 7:37 pm

And why put someone on Qwabe when a person on Itusi can see better and farther?
Back to top Go down
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 2182
Join date : 2021-01-04

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySun Feb 13, 2022 8:58 am

Mike re yur quote:-
" If Hayhow was accompanying Gardner along the track he would have seen movement along the iNyoni; hence a need to be sent ahead with an update to the camp. Remember, this all occurred just moments before firing broke out."

If Hayhow was with Alan's party why would he,one of the finest horsemen in the camp, send Hayhow ahead with such important news?
Also Alan makes no mention of seeing any enemy troops in any direction on his return to camp including Durnford's movements.
In fact in his 26th January letter he only claims to start seeing the enemy after he has arrived at the camp
"Shortly afterwards the enemy appeared in large numbers on our left"
Back to top Go down
Online
Julian Whybra




Posts : 3146
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySun Feb 13, 2022 9:35 am

There is also no record of anyone in camp reporting the arrival of a lone horseman such as Hayhow in advance of Gardner's arrival. A non-starter I think.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8360
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers   Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers EmptySun Feb 13, 2022 10:20 am

The original vedette positions were demarcated by Dartnell I believe. He was also underinstructions not to advance them to far ( Sorry not at home so I cant credit that statement). In view of that and I would assume Dartnell briefed Scott, why would he suddenly want to send vedettes to Qwabe and Nyezi.
By the time Scott took over on the morning of the 21st his men had been up and down the ridge many times. They were experienced men and being colonials didnt believe in strict instructions of sitting on a horse in the heat of the day staring into the distance. I would put odds on that they moved around and found the best observation points. In terms of views to the East and North it would be very hard to beat the iThusi ridge stretching to the North East. Far exceeding the views from Qwabe.
The statements from Barker about being 'driven of' and sending a warning to camp by circling the horses ties in 100% with Mehlokazula.
Are we not developing tunnel vision by relying fully on Barker?

Cheers
Back to top Go down
 
Trooper Christian Hayhow, Natal Carbineers
Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next
 Similar topics
-
» Trooper W Sibthorpe, Natal Carbineers
» Trooper Blaikie Natal Carbineers
» Trooper J. Deane, Natal Carbineers.
» Trooper W. Sibthorpe, Natal Carbineers, a survivor of the massacre at Isandhlwana
» Trooper G. Macleroy Natal Carbineers, killed in action at Isandlwana & re-buried Pietermaritzburg Old Cemetery

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: