WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Rorkes drift Hotel
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyToday at 4:57 am by aussie inkosi

» Staff College, Camberley. Class of 1880-1
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyWed Jul 08, 2020 6:46 pm by Beckwith

» Pete Smith Cottage.
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyTue Jul 07, 2020 6:29 am by 90th

» Lt C. Williams KIA Hlobane
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyTue Jul 07, 2020 5:09 am by 90th

» Diamond Fields Horse in Zululand
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyTue Jul 07, 2020 4:58 am by 90th

» Buffalo Border Guard Anonymous Letter
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 11:42 pm by Julian Whybra

» Surgn. J. McGann. A. M. Dept
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 11:07 pm by ADMIN

» Lieutenant-Colonel William Henry Dowling Reeves Welman, 99th
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 10:54 pm by ADMIN

» Commander C. Lindsay.
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 10:42 pm by ADMIN

» Reopening National Archives
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 10:01 pm by Bill8183

» S.SMITH Buffalo Border Guard
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 1:48 pm by Julian Whybra

» NNC Officer List
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 1:45 pm by Ells

» One of the lesser-known stories. It took place around the same time as Isandlwana.
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 7:37 am by Julian Whybra

» N Batt 5th Bde RA
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptySat Jul 04, 2020 11:52 am by Rory Reynolds

» Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyFri Jul 03, 2020 12:38 pm by Frank Allewell

» Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyFri Jul 03, 2020 6:06 am by SRB1965

» Malicious malware on this site
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 10:26 pm by intombe

» Zulu Victory - Views?
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 6:52 pm by WeekendWarrior

» Isandlwana Survivor photo's
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 3:56 pm by Julian Whybra

» Anyone got information on this.
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 3:55 pm by Julian Whybra

» Captn. H. G. Bowen, 88th Foot
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 1:18 pm by gstew88

» The South Africa Medal to HMS Forester - an anomaly?
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyWed Jul 01, 2020 7:41 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» Lieut. R. F. Dixon NMR
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyWed Jul 01, 2020 5:01 am by 90th

» Next month's DNW medal auction
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyTue Jun 30, 2020 6:45 am by 90th

» Zulu war medals on eBay
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyMon Jun 29, 2020 5:14 pm by SergioD

» John Basten
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptySun Jun 28, 2020 1:20 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» Lieutenant Walter Robert Higginson NNC
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptySun Jun 28, 2020 11:19 am by ciroferrara

» Letter home from Eshowe
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyThu Jun 25, 2020 2:24 pm by Blackcat

» Melvill's Revolver Cylinder
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyThu Jun 25, 2020 10:05 am by Drummer Boy 14

» Assistant Commissary W. Winspear Commissariat Department, present at Gingindlovu
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyMon Jun 22, 2020 12:05 pm by ADMIN

» Orders to laager at Isandhlwana
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptySun Jun 21, 2020 7:11 pm by SRB1965

» morale and the siege at Eshowe
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyFri Jun 19, 2020 9:58 am by Blackcat

» CUNNINGHAM
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyFri Jun 19, 2020 8:43 am by Julian Whybra

» ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptySat Jun 13, 2020 6:21 am by 90th

» Crimes back in England
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyThu Jun 11, 2020 3:44 pm by Catiline63

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Rorke's Drift A Soldier's Story with presenter Major John Thomas
Top posters
90th
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
littlehand
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
ADMIN
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
1879graves
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
rusteze
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
John
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Frank Allewell
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
90th
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
WeekendWarrior
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
ADMIN
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
Rory Reynolds
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
John Young
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
Ells
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
Brett Hendey
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
SRB1965
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_leftZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. BarZulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Bar_right 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.1
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable.2
Durnford was he capable. 3
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Adding to the Library
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.

 

 Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights.

Go down 
AuthorMessage
John

John

Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 57
Location : UK

Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Empty
PostSubject: Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights.   Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyTue Jun 21, 2011 12:11 am

I have been looking at various books and websites, to see if there are any actual accounts from either Zulus or British Soldiers that confirms that the Zulu,s didn't know how to work the sights on the M.H The reason I'm asking I was reading through surgical experiences during the Anglo Zulu War, and there some MH wounds on British soldiers. So either the British were very poor shots or the Zulus did have some understanding of the working of the sights. I recall John Dunn making comments about the shots falling short, but this was aimed at the British Soldiers. So if anyone as any account from someone who was there, it would be appreciated. Just one of those things I would like to put to bed.

Thanks in advance.
Back to top Go down
Saul David 1879



Posts : 527
Join date : 2009-02-28

Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights.   Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyTue Jun 21, 2011 8:36 am

John. There was a reference made to this by Lieutenant Knight, who was present at the Battle of Nyezane.
Back to top Go down
Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw

Posts : 552
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights.   Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyTue Jun 21, 2011 9:05 am

There is no doubt during the adrenalin rush of battle that a soldier simply overlooks the fact that he has not got his sights set properly, it was mentioned at Ginginlovu. However, under musketry order the commanding NCO would call out ranges for volley firing, for example
"ready....at four hundred yards, (soldier sets his sights) one volley,...preeesent!, (a three second pause, one, two, three, ...no order to fire..bang!)

During independent fire, the soldier then makes his mind up, and thats where it goes a bit wrong, the tendency is to blast away, not the kind of thing the victorian soldier did, normally the officer or NCO would state "three rounds, independent fire, commence!", and thats what you did. At that point the soldier would have to asses what he was shooting at, and adjust his sights accordingly, in the intense excitement/terror at that point he simply forgets. After Ghetysburg in the American civil war, muskets were found with up to seven loads in them as the soldier simply kept loading, even though he had had a missfire and the original was in the breech still, the sound and percussions around him he simply did not know his gun had not gone off.

Range evaluation played a big part in the School of Musketry at Hythe, and most NCO's would pass through this in his service, often more than once to attain a first class certificate in musketry, whence he could use that experience when on the range with his men.

So where does all this fit in with the Martini? (and the Snider before it). its all to do with Mr Whitworth and ballistics. the bullet trajectory on a Martini is a downward curve, from 100 yards, so to make the bullet go further, the barrel is raised, Mr Whitworths sights are in sectionalised increments, at 100 level, 200 yards a 5 degree lift, 300 10 degree an upwards, until 45 degrees (approx 1200) yards is acheived. So at 500 yards the bullet fired from prone, will go up 8 feet (2.4m). to come back to ground again. Below is the martini sight ladder, left is the 1-400 yard bed,with sectional lift points. Next is the ladder, you will see the increments 500-1400 yards. You will note the three platinum lines of the ladder leaf, this allows for windage, and bullet deflection caused by side winds at range.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

You will not the differing shapes of the slight slider and the ladder tip, this illustrates the change made from the Mk1 martini sight of 1874-77 (right), then the Mk2 sight with deeper sight notches for more precise aiming (left). Most Mk1's in service were upgraded between 1877-1881 to the new sight ladder.

So with all this to think about, did the average Zulu know how this work?, apart from a few who had shot prior to the war with more powerful cartridge loaded firearms, unlikely. Those who shot musket, shotgun and dodgy Portugese percussion smootbores, which were point and aim would simply not grasp the range = elevation principals, or indeed understand what say 500 yards was in relation to the ladder increments. So, a Zulu aims at a man at 500 yards. level sight, he hits the floor 200 yards before the man. Now, this is where it gets interesting, if he's on a horse....he hits the horse, not the man he's shooting at. Likewise, if he hasn't lowered the sight, at 200 yards, when the ladder is up at 500, it flies over his head.

Ideally the best setting for a teenie against a human is 200 yards, at that range, a lethal shot will be achieved between 100 and 400.

Sorry if I lost you all but its gravity, velocity, distance and adreanlin..
Back to top Go down
http://www.martinihenry.org
Saul David 1879



Posts : 527
Join date : 2009-02-28

Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights.   Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyTue Jun 21, 2011 9:09 am

John. Forgot to mention. Knight was in the Buffs. Might help to find it easier.
Back to top Go down
Saul David 1879



Posts : 527
Join date : 2009-02-28

Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights.   Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyTue Jun 21, 2011 9:18 am

Neill. You really must turn you knowledge into a publication.
Back to top Go down
Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw

Posts : 552
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights.   Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyTue Jun 21, 2011 9:34 am

Time, Saul, time, I spent three hours casting lead bullets at the weekend, you know when you've had enough when your gums turn blue!.

Actually, it was interesting when I did the BBC filming at Brecon with the Modern soldiers and the Martini in April, they soon grasped the Whitworth sights and they all were asking about zeroing, they were a bit surprised at my answer, Zeroing?... on a... martini?, well,if you know it shoots high and left you aim low and right. doh!.
Back to top Go down
http://www.martinihenry.org
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights.   Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyTue Jun 21, 2011 1:36 pm

John. Mentioned by S.D

Lieutenant Knight of the Buffs believed this was due to the close range at which
much ofthe firing was carried out He wrote:

"... Their want of skill (in firing) may be attributed to a great measure to a
misapprehension as to the use of the sights of their rifles. Knowing that when a
white man wants to hit an object a long way off he puts up his back sight. They
concluded that the effect of so doing is to cause the rifle to shoot harder, and
wishing to develop the full power of their arms at all times, they invariably used
their rifles with the back sight up, a misconception to which many a British
soldier owes his life."

Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights.   Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyMon Jul 04, 2011 9:13 pm

This from Colonel Evelyn Wood " Camp Kambula March 30th 1879.
Directed to The Deputy Adjutant- General.

"The enemy, well supplied with Martini-Henry rifles and ammunition, occupied a hill not seen from the laager, and opened so accurate and enfilade fire,though at long range, that i was obliged to withdraw a company of the 13th posted at the rear of the laager"
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights.   Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyMon Jul 04, 2011 9:29 pm

And another from the same letter.

"Our loss would have been much less severe than it was but for the fact of many of the Zulus being armed with the Martini- Henry rifles which were captured at Isandlwana and the Intombi River. Parties of the enemy armed with these splendid weapons finding cover under the rocks to the east and in a fold in the ground to the west kept up an enfilading fire from 600 to 1'000 yards, which inflicted all the serious damage of the day"
Back to top Go down
Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw

Posts : 552
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights.   Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyTue Jul 05, 2011 12:02 pm

Littlehand

Casualties at the REAR FACE (my emphasis) points to plunging fire, i.e rounds clearing the intended target (the front face) and overshooting into the position behind. by 800 yards the bullet fall trajectory is decreasing, at 1000 its near on 45 degrees, at 1400 less than 30.
Back to top Go down
http://www.martinihenry.org
24th

24th

Posts : 1849
Join date : 2009-03-25

Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights.   Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. EmptyTue Jul 05, 2011 12:26 pm

See what you mean. So it was unlucky for those in the rear for being in the exact spot where the bullets were landing. although they was the intended target
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights.   Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights. Empty

Back to top Go down
 
Zulu's And The M.H Rifle sights.
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: