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Film Zulu Dawn quote: “Excuse me, my Lord, there's something I must convey to you. I rode along the track down to Rorke's Drift. The sky above is red with fire. Your orders my Lord? Do we move to the drift?”
 
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» Henry William Longcast, Interpreter.
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» Officers of the 1st Battalion, 24th Regiment circa 1868
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» HMS Active RMA and Kroomen duties
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» Famous death?
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» N/5 Battery RA at Isandlwana
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» The Pickets on Mkwene
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» Durnford's medical officer
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» Victorian HMS SHAH South Africa Zulu Wars Medal William Morrison Royal Navy
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» 1st Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment, 1875
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» The 'other' fighting clerk - Corporal JH Mayor, N.N.C
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» Somerset soldiers killed at Isandhlwana
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» "The Wiltshire Regiment 1756-1914"
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» The Unknown Warrior Westminster Abbey
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» Lance Corporal Robert Eaton NMP
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» Lieutenant Anthony Kingscote, HMS Tenedos
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» Sir Robert Gordon Gilmour
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» William De Passey, 17th Lancers.1879.
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» Lieutenant Frederick Streatfield Pelly, RN
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» KEYNSHAMLIGHTHORSE GRAVES WEBSITE
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» Regimental numbers
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» Isandlwana, Last Stands
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» Colour of Lord Chelsmford eyes
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» List of identified bodies at Isandlwana
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» Defenders of Rorkes Drift
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» Colour Sgt Anthony Clark Booth, VC.
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» Cpl John Lyons
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» A Case of Mistaken Identity?
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» What happened next
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» Surgeon Espine Charles Ward
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» 2nd Lieutenant William Lancelot James, 2nd/4th Regiment.
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» Explaining Amabutho in one word??
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» Non-Combat Casualties - Royal Navy and Royal Marines
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» Colonel William,Egerton Saunders, C.B
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» Lieutenant-Colonel David Campbell Williamson.
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 The missing five hours.

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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

The missing five hours.  - Page 18 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 18 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 5:11 pm

Fred

You are quite right. The letter of 1 November 1879 from Mansel to Durnford is in Keith Smith's book on page 93. It refers to a number of notations on Mansel's map which must therefore have accompanied the letter. Those notations correspond to the KCAL map numbering reproduced by Ron Lock, so at some point after receipt Durnford must have changed the numbering system (I guess to include the point at which Durnford's Horse was attacked by the Zulu left horn) for publication in the Colenso Durnford 2nd edition. How did all this end up in the Wood papers in KZN I wonder?

Steve
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2366
Join date : 2011-09-12

The missing five hours.  - Page 18 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 18 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 5:59 pm

Fred
I knew I had a copy of the hand-drawn original of Mansel's drawing. In finding it just now I'd forgotten that it formed part of a letter from Mansel to Durnford. (I obtained it in 1993 so it was in a dusty old file - I have a good excuse for having forgotten the accompanying letter). It is dated 1.11.79. In it he says "I have sent you a small drawing of Isandhlwana with the particular places numbered. It is an exact representation of the place and gives you a very fair idea of it."
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

Posts : 1202
Join date : 2015-11-24

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 18 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 7:34 pm

I knew I had a copy of the hand-drawn original of Mansel's drawing.....

Nice one Julian. it would be cool if you would post it.
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 18 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 8:18 pm

rusteze wrote:
Fred

You are quite right. The letter of 1 November 1879 from Mansel to Durnford is in Keith Smith's book on page 93. It refers to a number of notations on Mansel's map which must therefore have accompanied the letter. Those notations correspond to the KCAL map numbering reproduced by Ron Lock, so at some point after receipt Durnford must have changed the numbering system (I guess to include the point at which Durnford's Horse was attacked by the Zulu left horn) for publication in the Colenso Durnford 2nd edition. How did all this end up in the Wood papers in KZN I wonder?

Steve

Steve,
Fine! The substancial part of your "little mystery" (I.E:Your own words) is now resolved. Well done, indeed! Salute
Amitié.
Fred
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 18 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 8:45 pm

Julian,
Don't worry!
1°) My memory is also often faulty,
2°) I already knew the existence of the letter (mentioned by JY on this thread),
3°) I only asked you if you had seen the Mansel's map in the Durnford's papers at Chatham.

I shall study a remark written by you on this thread about the vedettes ... Wink
Amitié
Fred
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 18 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 8:58 pm

Fred, with your help and Julians i think the little mystery is largely solved.

Here's another. Durnford includes an appendix in the 2nd edition "Lord Chelmsford's Statements compared with the Evidence" in which he refers to a Reconnaissance Sketch of Isandhlwana by Capt. Heneage RE. I don't seem to have a copy - does anyone else?

Steve Reinstadtler
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000

Posts : 1202
Join date : 2015-11-24

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 18 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 9:17 pm

From Blood on the Painted Mountain.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 18 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 9:32 pm

Steve,
Thanks.
Times of Natal 11th April 1879
Captain F. Heneage (RE) was appointed extra aide-de-camp to Major General Marshall, commanding Cavalry Brigade.
Marshall, as you know was at the head of a burial party at Isandhlwana...
Amitié
Fred
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2268
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Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 18 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 9:39 pm

Steve,
Do you think that there is a possible link with the map published first in the RE journal and then in Shadbolt?
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 18 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 9:47 pm

Fred
That's exactly what went through my mind!
Steve
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 18 EmptyTue May 22, 2018 9:57 pm

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
It was my "feeling"!
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2366
Join date : 2011-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 18 EmptyWed May 23, 2018 6:20 am

Xhosa
That is the Mansel's diagram - a little fainter then the original but that's it. And the printed words are identical to Mansel's hand-written original.
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rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 18 EmptyWed May 23, 2018 10:13 am

Hmm - not quite. Where did the reference to Mansel producing it for Durnford's father come from? And the distance to the RB has become 2 1/2 miles not 3 1/2. But I agree the sketch is exactly the same.

Steve Reinstadtler
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