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 Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon

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barry

barry

Posts : 935
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

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PostSubject: The fluidity of the battlefield   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 27, 2012 10:11 am



Bonjour Pascal,

Peut-^etre la situation ^etat si fluid ceperandant , que votre conjecture quant 'a le issue serait aussi bon
que n'importe qui.

Cordialment

barry
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PostSubject: Re: Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 27, 2012 11:40 am

Hello Barry

One of the great enjoyment of wargames and military history and to ask these questions:

What would have happened if ...?

The I really wonder if the Zulu could have triumphed in both situations I explain above ...

Chelmsford would deploy its army for fought " in line " as Pearson at the Nyezane river ... You can imagine the great battles ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptySat Jan 28, 2012 5:35 am

Hi all

Well in conclusion we can say that those responsible for the massacre of Isandhlwana, are not the british officers but the zulus...

Cheers

Pascal
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barry

barry

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PostSubject: The ammunition question   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 4:53 pm



Hi springbok,

Thanks for the recommendation on Jackson. i will get a copy shortly.
However, as I said in an earlier post I tend to put greater store in first hand reports rather than later "versions" of what happened .
Having said that, any aspiring AZW historian should have at leasts 10 books on the AZW in his collection and at least 20 if he is serious about it. This includes all of the current authors who, because of the powers of the www and the mountain of knowledge and facts now available are doing the subject much more justice than authors could do in the past.
The shortage of ammunition story confuses some as it is clear to me what has been written is misunderstood by them. I have done a study on this and will post on it shortly.

regards

barry

PS : we look forward to your pics of your visit to Isandlwana. Suggest check on long range weather with SA Met office first as they have been issueing some dire long range predictions about very heavy rains there in Feb/Mar. There are already two cyclones in th channel wreaking havoc. Swimming across the flooded mZinyathi would not be an option for me.
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 6:01 pm

Barry

To open an ammuntion box a single screw had to be removed, the 24th had pioneers who where armed with tools and had served and seen action before, to say they can't remove a single screw is ridiculas.

The 24th can't have run out of ammo, there is no evidence, its a myth that for some annoying reason has been put in reacent work Mad


Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 6:12 pm

Bonsoir DB14

Look that please...

As early as 1874 the treatise of ammunition provided plans of the Small Arms Ammunition Box,Mark IV,which was capable of carrying 560 Snider rounds or 600 Martini-Henry rounds.

This was modified slightly by the Mark V and VI models of 1875.

In each case,the box were made of teak or mahogany,and lined with tin to protect the contents on oversea service.

Each pattern was encircled by two copper retaining bands ,screwed into place;but it was not necessary to remove the bands in order togain access to the ammunition.

Access was via a grooved slidind panel in the lid;this was held in place by one scew,but it was generally recognised that in time of emergency a sharp blow ,or even a kick, to the outer edge would snap the screw and dislodge the panel.

The tin liner could be pulled back by means of a handle situated at the panel opening .

Alas it is not clear which pattern of boxes were in use at Isandlwana,Mark IV,V or VI... scratch

But in each case the quatermasters would have know better than to waste time unscrewing the retaining bands. Wink

Cheers

Pasca
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: survivors , NMP Trps Doig & Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 6:26 pm

Hi DB14
I doubt you can use the pioneers as an example of opening the ammo boxes , werent they well away from the camp repairing the road or attempting to make one at any case ? . The Soldiers themselves would have known how to open the boxes with a hefty blow from their rifle butts , it was as you say only a case of breaking or removing one screw .
cheers 90th. Salute
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barry

barry

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PostSubject: the ammunition shortage   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 6:29 pm


Hi Pascal and DB14,

Pascal,
No, there was no necessity to remove the strengthening bands. Only one brass screw held the lid in place.
Further, there was not even a real need to remove that screw.

DB14,
Contary to what you know, there is much evidence that the QM 24th and a certain "regimental drummer boy" was complicit in this problem.
Wait to see my post.

regards


barry
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: survivors , NMP Trps Doig & Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 6:54 pm

Hi DB14.
I forgot to mention there is a big differance between '' Running out of ammo '' compared to '' Beginning to run low on ammo ''.
There is no doubt that the flow was and would have been interrupted on its way to the firing line at some stage , and this was more so compounded when they began to withdraw toward the camp one would expect . Running out of ammo means exactly that , Nil rounds !. Running low can mean I'm down to my last 30 or 40 which isnt a lot when you can see what those poor chaps saw in front and around them !. . There are times when Essex or one of the surviving officers states they saw mules laden with ammunition running wildly around the camp and then bolting off in one direction or another . I doubt they had the perfect flow of ammunition that you think they did . Salute
cheers 90th. Salute
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 9:43 pm

When we say the firing lines. How long did the firing lines stand their ground before treating back to camp. I do recall reading somewhere that the men were putting up a steady fire as they were falling back. Doe's this not show that they had ammunition during the fall back. So what's the point of trying to get ammunition to a firing line that was falling back to where the ammunition was.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: survivors , NMP Trps Doig & Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptySun Jan 29, 2012 10:11 pm

Hi Chard1879.
I dont think we know for sure how long the firing lines stayed in place , but as they were a 1,000 yds or so , possibly more from the camp
Ammunition would no doubt be sent forward , and was , as it's mentioned in any of the books on Isandlwana by those who survived.
So , Obviously there was a need to send it out there in the first place . I think you are missing the point also , I'm not saying they had NO AMMO during the withdrawl , clearly they did have enough to effect the withdrawl to a certain extent . If you read my earlier post there is a differance between NO AMMO and 30 or 40 Rounds on your person . What I'm trying to say is that after the initial contact , when its been established that the troops carried on them 70 Rounds , they no doubt had much fewer during the withdrawl . Also I mentioned the Ammo Laden Mules were seen bolting off in all directions , not toward the firing line , Essex
I think is one who states this .
Also the ammunition would take many minutes to reach the firing line and be distributed , it's not as if they lined up and were given rounds like in a parade ground or something similar , there was mass confusion by everyone and everything involved that day . Therefore many rounds were no doubt sent before the withdraw was even commenced . Hope this makes it a little clearer .
cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptyMon Jan 30, 2012 7:09 am

Hi all

Not take rocket science to understand that the 24 th was not without cartridges, it is the turn of events that simply disrupted the distribution...

In addition, 24 th companies normally must have had a point of folds, the ammunition distribution points, whose locations were known...

There were how many ? A er unit ? Ok, and they were where ? This is what had to be of interest to officers of companies that were falling ...

And it's not a lack of cartridges that forces the 24 th in folds, but a deployment well too broad, and the retirement decision was made too late, perhaps the massacre ...

In any case the infantrymen of the 24 th could have at maximun than 70 cartridges and a minimun of 40 ,on them +30 per man in the reserve + the reserve of 30 rounds per man of the units with LC.

By cons before panic sets in, the quarter master's ammunition do those of their units ,that also disrupted the distribution...


also those of the 2nd Battalion of the 24 th in the battle would have a huge reserve with the reserve of their friends with LC ... Ditto for the colonial ...

In my humble opinion since the rates of fire in combat, including Issandhlwana were much slower in theory, no one ran out of ammunition, but there must have been a problem of distribution ...

If the battle had been prepared as the battles that followed, the 24 th may have survived ...

J'en suis sûr !

Cheers

Pascal
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptyMon Jan 30, 2012 5:11 pm

The pioneers have tools, there place during the Battle is with the Quater-Master, the 1/24th had 10 poineers under Corpral Richardson.

In 2001 an dig was done on the firing line, they found lots of diffrent peices of ammuntion boxes, copper bandings screws with the head bent.


The only unit that ran short could be the NNC and the NNH


Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptyMon Jan 30, 2012 6:07 pm

Good evening

But it was not for pioneers to open the boxes of cartridges!

Cheers

Pascal
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptyMon Jan 30, 2012 7:27 pm

Why ?

There place of duty is with the Quater-Master, right down to today.

They would have had tools, they could eaily open the boxes, plus the bandsmenand Smith-Dorrien and Captain Essex.



Cheers
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptyMon Jan 30, 2012 9:45 pm

Quote :
In addition, 24 th companies normally must have had a point of folds, the ammunition distribution points, whose locations were known...

Pascal. Your right. You would have thought ammunition stations would have been set-up as a matter of course.
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PostSubject: Re: Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 31, 2012 8:17 am

Hello All

It is certain that each combat company commander knew exactly where the reserves of ammunition from their units, is the least thing, and they finally they are necessarily folded matter of logic ...

Cheers

Päscal
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PostSubject: Re: Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 31, 2012 8:23 am

Hi DB14

I guarantee you that if thousands of Zulu advancing on you, you open any type of cartridge cases at the speed of light ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 31, 2012 8:25 am

Without tools and with the teeth if you must !
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PostSubject: Re: Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 31, 2012 3:49 pm

A Rifle but, Tent peg, Axe, Rock could all be used to open ammo boxes.

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PostSubject: Re: Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 31, 2012 4:40 pm

You raised it and you shattered on the ground, then when your box is empty, you can knock down Zulu with the box ...
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PostSubject: Re: Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon   Survivors, NMP Tprs Doig and Shannon - Page 2 EmptyTue Feb 07, 2012 4:42 pm

The words in the unquoted quotation which opens this topic are not Trooper Shannon or Trooper Doig's words. They are Holt's.
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