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Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
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» Lieutenant O'Connell, 60th Rifles. 1880 Isandlwana map.
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Commander Howse

Commander Howse

Posts : 158
Join date : 2012-07-01

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyThu Sep 05, 2013 4:45 pm

Pascal, Glynn would have been overkill to command a guard battalion, but he would have done better, to win, who knows, plus you take away the confusion of who should or is capable of command.

Commander Howse
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyThu Sep 05, 2013 4:51 pm

LC thought as a battle, he left Pulleine in the camp...

He took his best officers with him!

"PTR"Joker 
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Commander Howse

Commander Howse

Posts : 158
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyThu Sep 05, 2013 4:56 pm

Pascal, you are right the battle for LC was ahead of him, and He would be between the Zulu army and the camp. He knew that other detached Zulu infantry were out there. So He left a Battalion and a few others that were left because of guard duties to guard the camp. Pulleine was capable of fighting 5,000 Zulus, Unfortunately LC was wrong and he left the camp in the face of the entire enemy's main army and the was destroyed. A better officer could have saved the day, but we will never know.

Commander Howse
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kwajimu1879

kwajimu1879

Posts : 420
Join date : 2011-05-14

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyThu Sep 05, 2013 9:02 pm

6pdr.

6pdr wrote:
Perhaps you've forgotten Kiplings poem? Gatling guns could jam...
I believe that you are confusing your British poets.

It was Sir Henry Newbolt in the second verse of his poem Vitaï Lampada who wrote:

...The sand of the desert is sodden red —
Red with the wreck of a square that broke;
The Gatling's jammed and the Colonel dead,
And the Regiment blind with dust and smoke...


Rudyard Kipling did make a couple of recorded comments about the Gatling Gun, but to my knowledge made no mention of it jamming.

'Jimu
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyThu Sep 05, 2013 9:40 pm

ZULU WAR.
Southland Times , Putanga 3401, 15 Haratua 1879, Page 2[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.][You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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6pdr

6pdr

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyThu Sep 05, 2013 10:05 pm

kwajimu1879 wrote:
6pdr.

6pdr wrote:
Perhaps you've forgotten Kiplings poem? Gatling guns could jam...
I believe that you are confusing your British poets.

It was Sir Henry Newbolt in the second verse of his poem Vitaï Lampada who wrote:

...The sand of the desert is sodden red —
Red with the wreck of a square that broke;
The Gatling's jammed and the Colonel dead,
And the Regiment blind with dust and smoke...


Rudyard Kipling did make a couple of recorded comments about the Gatling Gun, but to my knowledge made no mention of it jamming.

'Jimu
Indeed, indeed...I stand corrected!  That's EXACTLY the line I had in mind, but I was conflating it with Kipling's THE YOUNG BRITISH SOLDIER.

When 'arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch,
Don't call your Martini a cross-eyed old bitch;
She's human as you are -- you treat her as sich,
An' she'll fight for the young British soldier


My brain cells aren't what they used to be...and probably never were.
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyFri Sep 06, 2013 6:41 am

Pity that LC was not a poet ...Very Happy 
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6pdr

6pdr

Posts : 1086
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Location : NYC

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyFri Sep 06, 2013 7:19 am

Pascal MAHE wrote:
Pity that LC was not a poet ...Very Happy 
His #1, Crealock, was a very accomplished water colorist however.
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyFri Sep 06, 2013 7:49 am

Yes it is true but the best for me is W.Loyd, I make all my figures of 24 th, after his watercolors and it has nothing to do with the figures, which are sold commercially ...Very Happy 
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John

John

Posts : 2558
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Age : 57
Location : UK

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyFri Sep 06, 2013 8:19 am

All watercolour sketches from whoever enables us to see, what they saw back then.
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2262
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyFri Sep 06, 2013 11:02 am

Hi Little hand,
 
it seems to me that this article contains many errors.
Durrant Scott was not shot close to the river
Willie London was not shot while making his way to the river
"Georges Shepstone was wounded and crept under somme dead bodies (...)" Indeed????
 
regard
 
YMOB
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyFri Sep 06, 2013 11:10 am

On the question of the uniform, it is no more realistic, on the actual appearance of the poor buggers of the 24 th in South Africa,that the watercolors of W.Loyd Very Happy 
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7488
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyFri Sep 06, 2013 11:45 am

Ymob
Frederik it looks as though it comes from a New Zealand Paper. No insult intended for any kiwi members.

Cheers
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2262
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Location : France

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyFri Sep 06, 2013 12:11 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Ymob
Frederik it looks as though it comes from a New Zealand Paper. No insult intended for any kiwi members.

Cheers
Hi Springbok
 
Thanks.
I suppose..."rumour" not the "fact"! (Julian, where are you? / smile).
regard
 
frédéric
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6pdr

6pdr

Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyFri Sep 06, 2013 7:36 pm

Pascal MAHE wrote:
Yes it is true but the best for me is W.Loyd 
Have you seen the coffee table book of his work that David Rattray had a hand in publishing?
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptySat Sep 07, 2013 6:24 am

No, for my documentation, I recovered all over the internet.Wink 
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impi

impi

Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 40

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptySat Sep 07, 2013 10:27 pm

ymob wrote:
Hi Little hand,
 
it seems to me that this article contains many errors.
Durrant Scott was not shot close to the river
Willie London was not shot while making his way to the river
"Georges Shepstone was wounded and crept under somme dead bodies (...)" Indeed????
 
regard
 
YMOB
Where was "Durrant's" body found. 

Can we confirm Stepstone didn't creep under bodies?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7488
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptySun Sep 08, 2013 7:59 am

George Shepstones body was found on the West face of the mountain. There are no witnesses to his death and no comments on the poition he was found.

Cheers
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impi

impi

Posts : 2308
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Age : 40

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptySun Sep 08, 2013 8:55 am

Thanks Springbok.Salute 

I seriously think! that newspaper articals are dismissed far to quickly, about the goings on at Isandlwana. 

Yet we believe the accounts, given at the court of enquiry put together by the one man, most of you blame for the diaster. No
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1879graves

1879graves

Posts : 3036
Join date : 2009-03-03
Location : Devon

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptySun Sep 08, 2013 12:18 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptySun Sep 08, 2013 2:17 pm

Ah the old myth about suicide Durnford who comes up

Otherwise, no one thinks that the camp could be saved as soon as the attack began
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptySat Sep 28, 2013 11:43 am

Hi all

In fact almost any other British general, of this time, would certainly save the camp, where he was in the place of LC ...

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyFri Oct 04, 2013 1:13 pm

In fact, the types remained in the camp were subjected to a series of incredible misfortune innéluctable, ect ... A sort of curse hanging over them ...

Because nothing happened on 22 and 23 January 1879 is normal, would not have happened under a different command, it would kind of twist of fate ...

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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptySat Oct 05, 2013 6:34 am

Anyway relief could only come from the exterior because the defenders did not pouvaientt absolutely count on the military genius of Durnsford or Pulleine. Very Happy - LOL - Very Happy 

Cheers

Pascal the Rascal
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyMon Oct 07, 2013 10:06 am

In fact it was all about timing, so I think ,that even the January 22, 1879, after the departure of LC , the massacre of Isandhlwana  have been narrowly avoided ...Wink 

Pascal
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90th

90th

Posts : 10077
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: ave the camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyMon Oct 07, 2013 12:15 pm

Hi Rascal .
I doubt it , not enough Imperial troops to hold the camp . Let's not forget they didnt really have any orders in the way of fortifying or similar , it's a numbers game , not enough Imperial troops as against to many Zulu's , who were deployed in the best way to counter the Imperial troops firepower . Somehow I doubt you'll agree ? .
cheers 90th
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyMon Oct 07, 2013 12:36 pm

Marsupial

I am studying all:

1 / The timing of all the troop movements of the 2nd and 3rd columns in this campaign of January 1879.
2 / The timing of the movements of all the messengers sent by officersin this campaign of January 1879.
3 / The reaction time of all officers who received orders or messages in this campaign of January 1879.

I think this way, I would make a clear idea of what was really possible, if someone had the will !

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: Save the Camp   Save the Camp - Page 9 EmptyFri Oct 11, 2013 5:07 pm

The January 22- 1879 , Lord Chelmsford had been spendind a frustating morning ...

Reaching Dartnell's force at about 6.30 he ordered it to find and attack the Zulu !!!

At 9.30 an orderly of the MP rode up to Clery and delivery Pulleine's message.Clery passed it straight to the General,who said :"There is nohing to be done on that." The ordely was asked a few questions and then dismissed.

Lord Chelmsford sent one of his A.D.C.s, Lieutenant Milne of the Navy, and Captain Symons to a neighbouring hill with some signallers to observe the camp, ten miles away, through telescopes.

They remainned there until about 11 o'clock ???

At 10 o'clock Chelmsford ordered the 1/3rd N.N.C. under Commandant Browne to march back to Isandhlwana,examinig the intervening ground but the rest of his force was ordered to assemble near the site of Dartnell's bivouac of the previous night ,with a view to forming a camp !!!

About 10.30 Clery sent back one of his assistants,Captain Gardner,with order to Pulleine to send out the tents and gear of the units concerned.

Several officers accompanied him to help with the arrangements,and an escort of ten MI went with them...

Lord Chelmsford rode on to fix a new camp site !!!

It was a warm, sunny day with a gentle,cooling breeze just stirring the grass...

The poor garrison of the camp of Isandhlwana, was alas ,permanently lost...

Cheers

Pascal


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