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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 23, 2012 10:17 am

Exactly ! Morris gives no source and he makes up large sections of his book, he says that Pope was writting in his diary
before the alarm was sounded but we don't know were Pope was, he invents conversations between Pope and Anstey, he says that all of E and F Coy were killed on the firing line when Ansety of F Coy was found with a large group of men around 2 miles from the firing line.



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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 23, 2012 12:40 pm

DB, isn't it acceptable that Morris got something's wrong, even to day the Historians are getting things wrong and filling in the gaps with what they supposed happened.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 23, 2012 5:16 pm

LH

Getting something wrong and making something up are 2 very diffrent things Salute



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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 23, 2012 7:19 pm

When Morris wrote his book, research tools weren't available like they are today. his book was the foundation of the Zulu War research we see today. And let's face it, he didn't do too bad...Did he.
He may have made mistakes, but if he hadn't we would only need the one book.TWOTS!!
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 23, 2012 7:26 pm

LH

Jackson wrote his account at the same time and his work is highly recomended by many like Julian, Payne, Knight ect.

Morris's work is not taken seriously by any historian becuase he just made up large sections of his book, you should
get a copy of the debate Jackson and Morris had in the 70s i think, Jackson blew Morris account to bits becuase he was using real information from people who were there, Morris had a few accounts and made the rest up.


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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 23, 2012 7:29 pm

Well if we all agree on everything, it would be a sad world. Merry Christmas
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 23, 2012 7:32 pm

DB. Have you got a copy of TWOTS.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 23, 2012 7:39 pm

Yup, but i don't rely on it at all.

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 23, 2012 8:30 pm

I enjoyed reading the Mitford book.

But we only have Mitford's word, that the charge took place. His source is from an unknown warrior supposedly of the Umbonambi Regiment. The book was published 4 years after the Zulu War.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptySun Dec 23, 2012 8:40 pm

LH

Are you suggesting that Mitford faked a Zulu account ? He was acivilian, why would he do that ?



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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 24, 2012 12:10 am

Here's another take on Younghusband, From another website, but just goes show what people are led to beleive what happened.

"Another act of characteristic Victorian style bravery at Isandhlwana, amongst the very many which deserves a mention, is the action of Captain Younghusband and his men, who like the single soldier who made his way into the crevice to make his last stand, also gathered on the slope to make theirs. In an extraordinarry display of chivalry and respect, the Zulus broke off their attack to allow the Captain to go around and shake his men's hand, knowing they were all going to die. The brave Captain ran down the slope and hopped onto a waggon to make his last stand Which is where I think they got the idea for Durnford's end (Burt Lancaster) in the film Zulu Dawn. He was eventually killed and in another show of respect, the Zulus actually carried his body up the slope and laid it with his men, before disembowelling."
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 24, 2012 10:53 am

So many accounts. scratch
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 24, 2012 11:18 am

Lots of secondary accounts, but only one primary account that can be trusted, the one CTSG posted was just someone
own view on what happened.


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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 24, 2012 12:04 pm

What primary account is that then. scratch
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 24, 2012 2:09 pm

Rolling Eyes

The account of a warrior interviewed by Mitford, its quoted in almost every book on the battle.
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Chard1879

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 24, 2012 4:15 pm

It's not a primary source. And if Julian says it is, then something is very wrong.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 24, 2012 5:06 pm

Chard

How is it not a primary source ? It came straight from the warrior who fourght in the battle. Suspect Suspect

I hope you get some books from christmas.



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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 24, 2012 5:39 pm

Quote :
How is it not a primary source ? It came straight from the warrior who fourght in the battle.

DB. So is the one in the newspaper artical. What's the differents?H
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 24, 2012 5:45 pm

Dave

So where is the account in the newspaper ? And why does it have many mistakes in it, Popes diary the
attack being repelled in the morning ect.



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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 24, 2012 6:39 pm

You know where it is, you have commented on it. One mistake. Pope!!!

DB stop dismissing sources as quickly as you do. It's becoming obvious yo all, that if Jackson doesnt mention it in his book then is not true!! You are more than entitled to your opinion, but give others a chance to check the sources. Then they can make their own minds up. No disrespect intended.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 24, 2012 7:22 pm

Dave

Its reported second hand in a newspaper, its not the genuine account.

As far a Jackson goes have you read his book ? I rely on it becuase its the most accurate book, but i have read almost all the others.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 24, 2012 8:01 pm

But Mitfords account was second hand.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 24, 2012 8:31 pm

How ? He interviewed a warrior and recorded what he said.
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyMon Dec 24, 2012 8:45 pm

Quote :
How ? He interviewed a warrior and recorded what he said.

A reporter interviewed a warrior and recorded what he said. What's the differents. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 26, 2012 10:32 pm

There are some who believe, he charged down into he Zulus, others say he turned a waggon into a rifle pit. No one will ever know for sure. Its just another one of those mysteries connected with Isandlwana?
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 07, 2014 6:11 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Photo taken from Springbok's video. The Saddle

Possibly the best image we have, of the terrain Younghusband charged down when their ammuntion had ran out. I'm more than happy to agree, that the charge led by Younghusband did take place. Always been a not believer and that the charge was victorian fantasy.

From the photo, it's possible that one of Younghusbands men, choose to hide in the cave, and with what ammunition he had left defended his position. All kind of fitts together!
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90th

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PostSubject: Younghusband's retreat    Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 07, 2014 10:17 pm

Littlehand
I think the charge took place as well but not in the romantic manner it's made out , I think it was an attempt to either
reach an ammunition cart , ( hence the idea he turned a waggon into a rifle pit , which he probably did ) or an attempt to link up with another group further down the slope . Cant see why the zulu would make it up ! , what purpose would it serve to do so ? . Agreed , no doubt one of Younghusband's
men took to the cave , I doubt anyone else would be anywhere near it , and possibly even knew it was there .
90th
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90th

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PostSubject: Younghusband's Retreat    Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 07, 2014 10:35 pm

Hi Littlehand
I forgot to mention that in 1879 there were basically no trees or vegetation around Isandlwana , this can be seen when you
look at the photos taken during the year of 1879 and soon after . I seem to recall Ian Knight mentioning the fact that the vegetation is only a recent ocurance in the last 30 yrs or so ? , there wasnt much there when he first arrived .
90th
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyTue Jan 07, 2014 11:11 pm

Many years afterwards I had a most interesting talk with a Zulu who fought against us at Isandhlwana. He had been for twenty years the faithful house servant of two friends of mine, who valued him as he deserved to be valued. He told me, with kindling eye and much animation, how the "horns" of the Zulu army encompassed the British troops on that fatal day. He told me of the overwhelming Zulu charge on the two Eoyal Artillery field guns, when every gunner was " assegaied " after firing one or two rounds. He said that the broad stabbing "assegai" was the true weapon of the Zulu soldier. "Guns no good for Zulu," he said; "take too long loading". He spoke of the severe losses of the Zulus, and his own "lucky" escape. And he told me how the Zulus flung their lighter "assegais" at the troops, who were rallied by their officers in companies, until the time came for the Zulus to charge "home" with their broad bladed " assegais " to meet the bayonets of the British in hand to hand conflict. He saw the stand among the rocks made by the last living British soldier, who fired off all his cartridges, fixed his bayonet, and died fighting, as a brave man should. My Zulu friend ended his story with a strong assertion of his love for the English. " I was Zulu soldier then, sir," he said ; " I did only what my Chief told me to do."

Source: LIFE OF JAMES GREEN, D.D., RECTOR AND
DEAN OF MARITZBURG, NATAL, FROM
1849 TO 1906
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 08, 2014 12:15 am

90th wrote:
Hi Littlehand
I forgot to mention that in 1879 there were basically no trees or vegetation around Isandlwana , this can be seen when you
look at the photos taken during the year of 1879 and soon after . I seem to recall Ian Knight mentioning the fact that the vegetation is only a recent ocurance in the last 30 yrs or so ? , there wasnt much there when he first arrived .
90th

I have not heard of that, but I do recall reading that on the first visit back to Isandlwana, the grass was very green and long . As a coinistance we have Springbok's video taken in the same month as the Battle. I would have thought the vegetation back in 1879 would have been more so than it is today. ?
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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 08, 2014 12:17 am

24th Good post, sent you a PM!  agree 
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90th

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PostSubject: Younghusband's retreat    Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 08, 2014 12:33 am

Littlehand , there was a photo on here you asked Springbok to take from the same position on his current trip , that by reports was taken in later 1879 , just compare the two , Not sure which book I read it in regarding Ian Knight's thoughts on the amount of vegetation at Isandlwana in the last 30 yrs or so , yes during the rains the grass does grow and much of it , but during the dry months it dies and doesnt appear till the next rains , there are many pictures on here showing Isandlwana as a barren area at certain times in history , I've posted pics here of the 50th Anniversary and as you can see there is virtually no vegetation , especially in regard to bushes and shrubbery . Try and find them and you'll see what I mean  agree 
90th
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John

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 08, 2014 1:03 am

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90th

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PostSubject: Younghusbands retreat    Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 08, 2014 1:28 am

That's the one John and I see Littlehand actually posted it in Dec ! , as you can see there is bugger all vegetation in the original photo as I explained earlier , ie Trees and shrubs which are present nowadays , these are a later day occurance as stated by Ian Knight , he also said there has been much undergrowth taking over the Fugitives Trail in the last 30 years or so since he's been going there .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 08, 2014 7:49 am

A couple of points with the Younghusband issue.
His body was found with his men, by Black I think? Its marked on the Mainwaring map as being found with 2 officers, unrecognisable and about 60 men, all on the rocks under the crag. Im pretty sure that destroys the waggon/rifle pit concept.
One of the interesting things I looked at while scrambling round the mountain is this.

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This is taken from the mouth of the cave. Look to the right and there is a small cairn. That's the highest cairn at Isandlwana. Connecting that cairn to the cave is almost like a small ridge. The other side of the ridge leads down towards George Shepstones grave.
This the cairn with the 'ridge' linking to the cave.
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Standing again at the cairn and moving slightly to the right.Look just above the large tree and you can see Younghusbands cairn.
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Again back to the cave mouth and looking slightly left, there is Younghusbands cairn and to the left quite a few more cairns.
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Some time back I wrote an essay on how I think Younghusband got to this area. Im now more than ever convinced that was the case. I think his initial stand was in that last photo where the small group of cairns stand. Then he was forced up the hill onto the 'ridge', he lost men there, hence the small lonely cairn. He made a decision to either die in glorious Victorian fashion or try and get down to the saddle. But that was pretty forlorn, from where he stood he could see the solid mass of Zulu and one or two groups of soldiers. What ever the reason they charged down the hill and got no further than the flat area where the bodies were found by Black.
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I think that's when one man stayed behind and nipped into the cave.

90th
You were discussing if or not Younghusband had a memorial. This the closest thing its an old battlefield marker next to the cairn.
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Cheers


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90th

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PostSubject: Younghusband's Retreat    Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 08, 2014 8:36 am

Thanks again Springy , can you tell us what the marker says ? . Sorry , you may need to climb up there again ! LOL.  Shocked 
You know you want to !  Rolling Eyes 
Cheers 90th  Salute 
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 08, 2014 8:43 am

Hi 90th
It says the same in English Zulu and Afrikaans
Simply: Younghusbands last stand.
Some thing in the back of my mind tells me that Ken Gillings had some thing to do with placing markers around the battlefield, this I think is the only one left.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 08, 2014 8:50 am

90th
Sorry just followed the conversation about the growth. Whole heartedly agree with Ian. The trail has been overgrown really badly, especially now in summer ( It is a summer rainfall area) Chatting with Charles from RD Hotel he had taken a horse down the trail and in places he couldn't get passed the thorn trees. If you look at the mini vids Ive posted you can see how thick it is.
In May last year I took photos from the road of Shepstones Grave, now you cant even see it. I struggled getting up there.

Cheers

PS Just heard the height of optimism is an English cricketer putting on sun tan lotion !!!!!!!
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90th

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PostSubject: Younghusband's retreat    Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 08, 2014 9:16 am

Very Happy   Very Happy  I must take that joke to work tomorrow ! LOL.
90th
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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 08, 2014 1:37 pm

Thanks Frank - these photos and the videos are awesome. I look forward to the update of the Isandlwana App  Salute 

Do you by any chance have a photo of where Pope, Goodwin-Austin and thier 2/24th company made their last stand.

Cheers

Sergio
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 08, 2014 2:01 pm

Just a short video to show Younghusbands line position and his retreat,


Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 08, 2014 2:13 pm

Hi Sergio
That's one of the unknowns. There was testimony from a Zulu source of fighting an officer with glass in his eye, monocle, Pope and Goodwin Austin were the only two to wear monocles. Also Popes body was identified and marked with an old kitchen iron, unfortunately that disappeared so there is no 100% accurate positioning.
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If I had to take a punt Id put them in one of the cairns to the right. But for sure they are some where in this shot.
Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 08, 2014 3:26 pm

Thanks Frank - that is great - the conical hill puts it in perspective nicely. I must admit the battlefield looks completely different when the grass has grown. We were there around July and it was very barren gives you a completely different feel.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 08, 2014 7:37 pm

So what's the reasoning behind, no vegetation then but there is now. The planets pollution back then wouldn't be nothing compaired to today's?
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24th

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyWed Jan 08, 2014 10:57 pm

Younghusband's position seems to have been the most logical place to be!
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Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 09, 2014 10:02 am

I wonder why this lone soldier, drew attention to himself, if he had remained unseen, we would have had an eyewitness account, there would have seen the last stages of the battle, and what a view he would have had.
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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 09, 2014 5:38 pm

I suspect that, unless the lone soldier had crept into the cave during the early stages of the battle there would have been so many Zulus around that he wouldn't have been able to crawl into the cave without being seen.

I wondered also if a soldier or two tried to scale the side of the hill (after all there weren't any other places that offered any possible safety) to the summit to try to hide themselves away amongst the boulders.

Are there any reports - cant recall any - of any soldiers reappearing in the dark who had hidden during the battle - there are reports during other fights - RD being one where a soldier or two could hide away and be missed by the Zulu
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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 09, 2014 7:02 pm

Younghusband
To answer your questions:
That cliff face is virtually unclimable, if wearing a serge uniform, boots and webbing completely unclimable .
There were no additional troop survivors other than those that left the battlefield.
There was a report of a black wagon driver/helper coming in the next morning.
I'm pretty sure that last soldier was a member of Younghusbands company. ( my earlier photos should indicate that )

Regards
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 09, 2014 10:50 pm

For all we know, the lone soldier could have been wounded, and left there, by Younghusband! Giving what covering fire he could, as they charged down. Possibly the men giving him what ammuntion they had left? Just a thought.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Younghusbands Retreat   Younghusbands Retreat - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 10, 2014 6:14 am

A highly plausible thought, nice one.  Salute 
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