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 By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published

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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3957
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published Empty
PostSubject: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptyWed Oct 03, 2012 3:45 pm

A while ago I made a number of posts concerning the Durnford Papers.   I was deliberately cagey in my responses because I told you that I hoped I would be re-publishing and updating an article on them in the near future to which would be added photographs of the original documents as they were when found (i.e. not as they are now).

I also completed my researches into the newspaper article headed ‘A Brave Fugitive’, a discussion of which also occurred in this forum, and promised that this would be available soon.

Several of you e-mailed me to ask when the research would be forthcoming and I have admin’s permission to announce here that both these articles and a third are now published under the title ‘Studies in the Zulu War 1879: I’.  It contains 81 pages and is produced in A4 paperback format with glossy cover; the three articles are entitled:
Isandhlwana and the Durnford Papers      by F. W. D. Jackson and myself                    
A Brave Fugitive: An Anonymous Account of Isandhlwana       by myself
“An Englishman in outlandish places…”: Anthony Trollope and Lieut. Nathaniel Newnham-Davis in South Africa, 1877                                by myself

I am not interested in making money from this but I would like two museums to benefit from their sale.  Accordingly the book is available only through the Regimental Museum of the Royal Welsh, Brecon (Bill Cainan) and its website and, it is intended, through the shop at the Royal Engineers’ Museum, Chatham (I am awaiting their consent on this).

I intend to re-publish previously-published (but difficult to obtain), updated articles together some new ones under the same title – I currently have enough for nine further volumes of similar length – and these will appear gradually over the next three to four years.  Volume II is almost finished.

I hope you enjoy reading them and it'll cause some debate here!
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper


Posts : 2590
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

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PostSubject: New research.   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptyWed Oct 03, 2012 4:07 pm

Hi Julian.

Many thanks for this information, much appreciated.

Salute
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SergioD

SergioD


Posts : 401
Join date : 2012-03-27
Age : 61
Location : London/Herts

By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published Empty
PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptyWed Oct 03, 2012 4:32 pm

Thanks Julian - I look forward to getting a copy - I shall observe the debate on here from the sidelines - not sure I am ready to take on 90th, Littlehand , CTSG, 6pdr or Tasker. When it comes to these type of debates I shall follow the example of Hamer, Curling et al and make a run for it :lol:
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3957
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Location : Billericay, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptyWed Oct 03, 2012 4:51 pm

As long as you watch your back whilst running!
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tasker224

tasker224


Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 57
Location : North London

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PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptyWed Oct 03, 2012 5:33 pm

Well done Julian; and don't price them too dearly, or iIll never be able to afford that cruise on LH's yacht!
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3957
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Location : Billericay, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptyWed Oct 03, 2012 5:52 pm

Tasker
I've priced each just to cover the publication costs. The respective museums will undoubtedly add a small amount to add to their income (with postage as extra) and that is as it should be. I hope you enjoy Volume I - one very much updated article and two new ones.
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tasker224

tasker224


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Location : North London

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PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptyWed Oct 03, 2012 6:09 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Tasker
I've priced each just to cover the publication costs. The respective museums will undoubtedly add a small amount to add to their income (with postage as extra) and that is as it should be. I hope you enjoy Volume I - one very much updated article and two new ones.

look 4wd to reading them Salute
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littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7076
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 55
Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptyWed Oct 03, 2012 7:19 pm

Good News Julian. Looking forward to reading about the "A Brave Fugitive" if I recall this is the chap, who turned up with no boots,tunic said nothing and rode on. When will these publications be available. Just checked Bill's site, can only see England's Sons.
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bill cainan




Posts : 225
Join date : 2011-09-19

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PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptyWed Oct 03, 2012 7:24 pm

Hi all

Julian is sending us a batch of the new booklets. Once they arrive I'll post them in the shop section of our website and put an annoucement on this site.

We propose retailing them at £12.50 (plus p&p) each.

No pre-orders please !!!!!

Watch this space ...................

Bill
Bill Cainan
Curator
The regimental Museum of The Royal Welsh
Brecon

01784 613310
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littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7076
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Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptyWed Oct 03, 2012 7:51 pm

Thanks Bill. Very reasonably priced. Salute
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tasker224

tasker224


Posts : 2101
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PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptyWed Oct 03, 2012 8:01 pm

littlehand wrote:
Thanks Bill. Very reasonably priced. Salute

Thanks Bill, agree with LH Salute
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Dave

Dave


Posts : 1603
Join date : 2009-09-21

By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published Empty
PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptyWed Oct 03, 2012 9:01 pm

Excellent something to look forward, to. I hope Julian as use primary sources. Rolling Eyes
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Chard1879

Chard1879


Posts : 1261
Join date : 2010-04-12

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PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptyThu Oct 04, 2012 12:11 am

Been looking forward to this new research, when Julian first mentioned it a while back. Just hope it sheds new light on the , Durnford Papers and not what we already know.
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90th

90th


Posts : 10882
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Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: New Research I've Just Completed And Published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptyThu Oct 04, 2012 1:34 am

Hi Julian .
Well done, I'll certainly be investing via the RRW looking forward to reading it and as you said I'm sure it'll cause some debate and quite possibly heated / spirited at that !!. :lol: :lol: . Just the way the members on here like it !. Rolling Eyes . Again well done.
Cheers 90th. Salute
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Julian Whybra




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Location : Billericay, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptyThu Oct 04, 2012 8:01 am

Chard
The article dealing with the Durnford Papers is our original article updated with (since people asked for it) original photos of the documents as we found them. The only points I've not expanded upon are the location of X and Durnford's intentions, both of which are so lengthy that they warrant separate articles in their own right later on. To include them here would detract from the narrative.
I'm sure you'll find the photographs interesting - it means you won't have to take any historian's words for what's there, you can see and work it out for yourself.
Little hand
The Brave Fugitive led to some tortuous paths which took me in several directions. These I explored in the footnotes - which are as interesting as the main text- for example, the identity of the man who delivered Gardner's message to RD and the order of the Isandhlwana fugitives' arrival at RD, and the fact that several of them accompanied Henderson's mixed NNH.
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bill cainan




Posts : 225
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PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptyThu Oct 04, 2012 10:57 am

Hi everyone

The booklets - STUDIES IN THE ZULU WAR Vol 1 - are now in. Ring if you want a copy £12.50, plus p&p.

01874 613310

It'll go on the shop section of our web site soon.

Bill
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Dave wrote:
Excellent something to look forward, to. I hope Julian as use primary sources. Rolling Eyes

Please remember, primary sources are not the be all and end all. Remember, West Yokshire Police oficers' accounts of what happened at Hillsborough on the 15th April 1989 are primary accounts. Misleading primary accounts.

If we rely solely on primary accounts, we still don't know any more about iSandlwana and the AZW, than what the board of enquiry found out in 1879.

The reason why modern day historians, archaeologists and miltary tacticians still visit the battlefields today, is amongst all else, to try to make an attempt to sort the wheat from the chaff.
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Tasker
I think Dave was being facetious in his remark.
I've used primary sources and logic but NOT secondary sources.
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bill cainan wrote:
Hi everyone

The booklets - STUDIES IN THE ZULU WAR Vol 1 - are now in. Ring if you want a copy £12.50, plus p&p.

01874 613310

It'll go on the shop section of our web site soon.

Bill
Bill Cainan
Curator
The Regimental Museum of The Royal Welsh
Brecon
[quote]
Bonjour,

I am very happy to purchase a copy,..but i am living in France.
it's not at the shop of the brecon Museum.
Regard

Frédéric
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90th

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Hi Ymob.
Bill said in an earlier post it will be available through the Royal Regiment Of Wales on - line shop shortly . He is taking orders via the phone for those living in the UK , our turn will come soon Frederic !. Bon Chance mon ami Very Happy Very Happy . Here is the link from where you'll be able to buy it on-line soon .



http://www.rrw.org.uk/shop/shop.php

cheers 90th. Very Happy
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Just purchased mine.

http://www.rrw.org.uk/shop/shop.php?action=view&prodid=354
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Me too !. Very Happy Very Happy .
Cheers 90th. Salute
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90th wrote:
Hi Ymob.
Bill said in an earlier post it will be available through the Royal Regiment Of Wales on - line shop shortly . He is taking orders via the phone for those living in the UK , our turn will come soon Frederic !. Bon Chance mon ami Very Happy Very Happy . Here is the link from where you'll be able to buy it on-line soon .



http://www.rrw.org.uk/shop/shop.php

cheers 90th. Very Happy
[quote]
Mon ami

Thank you for this information.
regard

Frederic
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I heard on the grapevine that the first batch of Julian's book as sold out Salute More being ordered. Congratulations Julian, looks like is going to be a best seller. Hopefully some good discussions will come to head once it's been read...
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impi
Thanks for the thought but it can't be a best seller. I don't write books for Waterstone's. The number of people interested in the sort of books I write (i.e. researched, academic, and fiercely detailed) is very small. I'll be lucky to sell a hundred. The number is not important to me - the truth is - and I aim to put as many articles out there, past and in preparation, as the market will take, so that AZW readership can be informed, able to reach decisions, and form opinions on a subject they love, with a sense of having explored the sources.
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Hill all,

Just purchased mine .

Regard

Ymob
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Received my copy today. Much better quality than " England's Son" and an original signature not photo copied. Had a quick flick through the pages, looks like its going to be a good read. Something for the weekend. Thanks Julian. Salute
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Hi Pete.

Yes, I also received my copy of Julians book (also signed).

I have had a quick read through of it, and it would appear from the various papers and various reports, that Col Durnford is totally innocent of any wrongdoing, and was quite in order leaving the camp to try to find out if the zulus were heading towards Chelmsford.

This is going to be a great read, and I will be placing my order for the other books when they are published. I have a feeling that this series of books will be of great importance to anyone that has an interest in the AZW, especially to those of us who believe that Col Durnford was set up, scapegoated and unjustly had his name blackened to protect Chelmsford's backside.

Well done Julian. Salute
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Still waiting for mine to arrive !. Suspect . Hopefully friday . You need to study mo .
Cheers 90th.
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Don't worry Gary mate, you are in for a real treat, some great reading in there.

Hope all ok mate.

Salute
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I'm hoping someone is going to post that this new publication is going to bring something new to the table, in which case I might consider purchasing a copy. However if it's the same material that Julian's been talking about over the last few months, then all the questions in the book have already been discussed. So to those of you who have purchased a copy, please let us know if it's new evidence, or material that as already published by Jackson, or any other author.
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Mr M. Cooper wrote:

I have had a quick read through of it, and it would appear from the various papers and various reports, that Col Durnford is totally innocent of any wrongdoing, and was quite in order leaving the camp to try to find out if the zulus were heading towards Chelmsford.

This is going to give CTSG You need to study mo the hump!
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Julian, congratulations on your Brave Fugitive conclusion. 
Just one thing I can't get my head around. Why would he write his account anonymously?
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CTSG
I very rarely provide the results of any new research I've done on a website forum. My past experience has been it gets stolen and appears in someone else's article/book. I only ever put new research into published work. To 'lift' it would then become plagiarism and damnable in the eyes of the academic world and general readership.
Admin
Why anonymously? Well, why would Essex write his anonymously? Or Vause? Why does CTSG? Why does Littlehand? In this particular case, perhaps he was afraid of any backlash, of any taint of cowardly, ungentlemanly behaviour? Given the editor's comment, he was right not to have put his name to it.
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Good point.
However If he hadn't been named by some of the defenders as being at RD I could understand his reason for writing anonymously. But he was named quite a few times carrying out certain tasks, of which some were very high profile. 
He isn't on the roll call.( Unless I have missed him)  Adendorff is on the roll call and his active roll at RD is hardly mentioned. As regards to the others you mentioned writing anonymously understandable at the time, as they were British officers. But when they did write their accounts they did used their name. Adendorff is the only one credited with the taking part in both Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift. Why would this chap allow his part in both battles to go un-noticed. When this Battle was credited with saving Natal.

Just a thought..

Here's a post from John Young, taken from the RDVC website posted Feb 2002.

"As to the N.N.C. being able to erect the barricades at a break-neck pace at Rorke's Drift, may be there was a certain element of coercion there with the comment made by R.J. (Bob) Hall, who states '...and stood over them while the laager was built under the direction of Mr. Dalton.' I conject the term 'stood over them' has all sorts of possible inferences; "do as you're told or else" or may be their labour was directed at the point of a gun? Just theorizing."

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who we talking about?
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Don't know. But it hasn't moved the discussion on. Suspect
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Admin
(1) Hall is not on the Roll Call of Defenders because he didn't stay to take part in the defence (as Henderson didn't). I wouldn't expect to find him there.
(2) It may be that he did put his name to it but the editor decided to use his discretion for the man's own good and published it anonymously.
(3) Apart from the British officers I mentioned, Davies, Erskine, stafford and Vause all sent in anonymous letters (or their comments were reported anonymously).
Ultimately, we just don't know why it is so published.
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From Ian Knights book "Zulu Rising"

Chard asked Henderson to 
'' Observe the movements and check the advance , of the enemy as much as possible until forced to fall back ''(31). Henderson agreed , and Molife and his men rode around the Sthn Flank of Shiyane and took up a position just out of sight of the garrison.
They had not been gone long , however , when there was a splatter of shots and they came into sight again , rising fast for Helpmekaar . Henderson and Bob Hall rode past the front of the post and Hall called out , '' Here they come - as black as hell and as thick as grass (32). He and Henderson lingered for a while beyond the Orchard , firing a few shots at targets still out of sight to the garrison , before they turned and rode after their men (33). Even Chard found it hard to blame them - they were almost out of ammunition and after their experience that morning they had no stomach for a further fight . He saw the same men perform well later in the war , but when he asked them about that day they merely replied ' That Durnford was killed , and that it was no use .


So we know, that Hall didn't remain at RD. but he claimes to have been a RD when the hospital was set alight. The account is just another one of those anonymous accounts where some parts add up and others don't. Someone possibly over heard a conversation at helpmarker. A bit like the Sgt Major at Rorkes Drift artical got some details right but others wrong.
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Little hand
I know I keep saying it but you CANNOT quote a passage from a secondary work like Ian Knight's as evidence of something. Ian Knight WAS NOT THERE. Because something is in his book, does not make it true.
Read my essay again carefully. Plenty of people saw Hall at RD. Yes he did not stay. Yes, he rode off with Henderson after firing shots. Hall does NOT claim to have been at RD when the hospital was set alight (you've misread this). We know from others they lingered for a while some way off and by implication saw the hospital set alight (6 pm) before finally leaving for Helpmekaar.
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With reference to the account, posted by the anonymous writer, you convinced me awhile ago, that these newpaper articals are not worth the paper there written on. Anyone could have wrote these accounts.
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Little hand
What you say is generally true...where they are ISOLATED accounts (anonymous or not). But where they tally with other named accounts (either by the individual himself or by others) then they have to be taken seriously and looked at again. Essex's, Vause's, Erskine's and Davies's accounts (all contemporary and anonymous, all in newspapers) fall into this category.
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Julian. I have high lighted the text in-question. Either I'm reading it wrong, or he clearly states. He was there when the Hospital was fired. He even states "In all we numbered 80" We be the opertive word. If I'm read this wrong, I would be greatfull, if someone could show where.


Natal Witness, 18.02.79
POLTROON’S ACCOUNT OF ISANDLWANA AND RORKE’S DRIFT
‘A Brave Fugitive’ The following letter has been passed to us, we presume for publication. The utter poltroonery of the writer is only equalled by his inability to see –

"I promised to give you a better description of that frightful massacre at Isandhlwana, Zululand. I can assure you it makes my hair stand on end to relate, but promises must be fulfilled. On 22nd about 7 AM a report came from Captain Barry, on outlying piquet, that ? armies of kafirs were advancing towards our camp. I was sent by Pulleine to inquire into the matter, and see how far they were extended; my report was to Pulleine that a dense mass of kafirs was gradually advancing and extending about 5 (Miles?) in beautiful open order. By the time I had reached the camp Durnford had arrived with about 300 mounted Basutos; shortly afterwards these men were put into action to support Barry and try to keep the left flank back; however they were driven back by degrees. Shortly afterwards dense masses of Zulus made their appearance on the ridges, so the guns were at once drawn into action and fired in (between?) the enemy, who made an opening in their column, though it closed up in ten seconds after the explosion. The rocket battery was (scattered?) about three miles from the camp, and only fired a couple of shots when it was (?) cut up. The Carbineers were attacking enemy on right front, but were driven back by degrees. They retired gradually towards the camp. By that time the 24th had opened fire on the Zulus at 700 yards, pouring volley after volley into the brutes; I can assure you it was more like a roar of thunder than firing, but to no avail – they seemed not to care, though many thousands were killed. It was one mad rush towards the camp and our noble warriors, and when the savages came within abut 50 yards of the gun it retired, and soon all in the camp ran for their lives.
Then the massacre began, something awful to relate. The brutes did not spare man or (livestock?) in their way. Poor man in holy dead before his stomach is ripped open (?). They followed to the Buffalo, altogether 4 or 5 miles and killing everyone they came across. Only 20 or 25 Europeans escaped.
About my escaping I will give you a short account. When the kafirs drove the 24th back I stood firing at them as fast as I could load. The last shot before I mounted my horse was about 30 yards from them. I then mounted and gave my horse the reins, but got only about 300 yards when it was shot under me. Some of Durnford’s men came past on horseback; I caught at the bridle and got firm hold of the reins, it checked the horse and sent the rider to the ground; the poor devil was too frightened to look to the horse but ran for it. I made one jump into the saddle and started again; we had to (?) over a kind of ruck or hollow, and a little lower down (??) my way through the brutes, how I got through that part I am not able to relate, and after riding (?) through them all safe, my horse was shot again. Fortunately one of the same lot I got the first horse from had a led horse which he gave to me. I can assure you it did not take me long in mounting; I pressed (?) further on my way but did not go very far when the other one was shot through the front leg, so I made a run for it, and after running a couple of hundred yards some more men came past me, and some led horses. So I levelled my gun at one and told him if he didn’t give me a horse I would blow out his brains. So I got mounted again and rode in company with about 150 of Col. Durnford’s men towards Rorke’s Drift. When my horse was knocked up and one of the same party kindly gave me another, so I arrived at this place in time to give them warning.
It was hard work for a couple of hours to rough up some kind of wall made of mealies, oats and biscuit boxes. We made some kind of wall, and made several loopholes in the two houses when the savages came down on us but we mowed them down. About dark they fired the house which was the hospital and killed several sick and (wounded?) men there. In all we numbered 80 men (?); our losses amounted next morning to 13 killed and a couple wounded – on the enemy’s side 475, which were buried.
At the camp 80 of 89 NNC officers and NCOs were killed, and 21 officers of the 24th, two colonels and all the band (save one bandsman) and all NCOs were killed. It is disgusting they lie unburied on the field. I am without a horse and have only one suit of clothes. If they do not let us go from here soon I shall have to go with a (?) bag as my dress; I believe they intend to keep us here. I don’t know how I shall stand it for I have nothing to cook in and have to borrow something to make a cup of tea or coffee. I can assure you that I am in a dilapidated state now, and as soon as the war is over I will never volunteer again."
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I still think, this is Ardendroff. He gave a warning, and we know he stayed.
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By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published Empty
PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptySat Oct 13, 2012 8:35 am

Little hand
Actually, it doesn't.
If you look at it again carefully, it says:
"It was hard work for a couple of hours to rough up some kind of wall...made of mealies, oats and biscuit boxes; we made some kind of wall, and made several loopholes in the two houses, when the savages came down on us, but we mowed them down."
That is the end of the sentence and there is a definite personal involvement with "we mowed them down". The next sentence reads:
"About dark they set light to one of the houses...and killed several sick and a few of the men that were there."
This doesn't involve "I" or "we" and does not indicate personal involvement though it might involve personal observation - and that is perfectly possible if, as elsewhere stated, he and Henderson halted some way off and looked back at proceedings. It's also in keeping with a man who was something of a braggart trying to overplay his involvement. The next sentence is in keeping with the previous one:
"In all we numbered eighty men available. Our losses amounting...to thirteen killed...on the enemy’s side 475, which were buried."
Again, there is no personal involvement. He merely states what happened post eventum.
After that sentence there is nothing further relating to the defence and the fight - clearly he wasn't there.
I looked very carefully at this paragraph as a whole because I realized its import for my argument. However, it seemed very much in keeping with how he'd written things up previously. He was not writing for posterity, not for future generations of budding historians, he just wrote as he spoke. The deciding factor for me was that the grammar and focus of the narrative has a clear break in it at that point between "down." and "About". The personal involvement ceases; the impersonal starts. And the precise meaning implied conforms to his (Hall's) having been present at RD at 4.30 for mowing them down but not present (physically within the barricades) at 6.00 when the hospital burnt down. That full stop between the two sentences represents and hour and a half. The following full stop represents a break of 12 hours!
I'm not intending to persuade you here Little hand - I just wanted to explain to you my reasoning.
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littlehand

littlehand


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By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published Empty
PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptySat Oct 13, 2012 11:53 am

Ok. I have look at what your saying. But I don't see it. In the letter he is trying to give a clear indication that he fully took part in the action at Rorkes Drift.

Chard asked Henderson to  '' Observe the movements and check the advance , of the enemy as much as possible until forced to fall back ''Henderson agreed , and Molife and his men rode around the Sthn Flank of Shiyane and took up a position just out of sight of the garrison. They had not been gone long , however , when there was a splatter of shots and they came into sight again , rising fast for Helpmekaar . Henderson and Bob Hall rode past the front of the post and Hall called out , '' Here they come - as black as hell and as thick as grass. He and Henderson lingered for a while beyond the Orchard , firing a few shots at targets still out of sight to the garrison , before they turned and rode after their men

F/note 33. Letter from Bob Hall , C 1906, Campbell Collections , University of KwaZulu - Natal, Durban.

Ian Knights book "Zulu Rising"


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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptySat Oct 13, 2012 1:18 pm

Little hand
You are wrong. You've put too much faith in your quotation from Knight's book and you've been led astray. So, let me give you the correct text of the quotation from Bob Hall's letter of 1906:
"When the laager was completed, Mr Dalton asked Mr Henderson and myself if we go and reconnoitre over the hill, and we saddles up and went off. At that time all the native contingent had again disappeared, also some natives Mr Henderson had brought with him, mounted boys from Edendale. We went over the hill and as we were returning we saw some Zulus making a rush for Rorke’s Drift House. I remarked, ‘The Zulus are upon us,’ and we galloped towards the house. My horse was the faster of the two, and I got to the house first above the fence, and I passed within a few yards of the Zulus, the first shots were fired from the hospital and whizzed about my ears. Mr. Henderson went round below the fence and we met outside the wall of the Commissariat shed and the cattle kraal. Here we took shelter and there we stayed and fired away at the Zulus as they came down the hill and squatted themselves in the garden under the peach trees and among the mealies. I must tell you now that when the Zulus first attacked Rorke’s Drift, there were not more than twenty five of them and they kept coming on in batches of twenty five to fifty and so they continued rolling up, until they set the hospital on fire. At this time Mr. Henderson and I had exhausted all our ammunition and had to move further away to a thorn tree about 500 yards below the house. It was getting dusk, and as we saw no chance of returning to the laager, as the whole place would soon be on fire, we decided to leave, and started to ride to Helpmakaar. On the way we fell in with a convoy taking ammunition to Rorke’s Drift and quietly trekking along in complete ignorance of what had happened there. Mr. Henderson stayed with them the night, and I went off after my cattle at Helpmakaar. As an eye witness I know what happened at Isandhlwana and Rorke’s Drift, up to the time the hospital was fired..."
The above passage appears on pp. 62-3 of my book. Knight embellished Hall's words to produce the passage you quoted. So, Hall, in his own words, stayed, fired the shots at the charging Zulus, then fled 500 yards off, remained hidden and watched, saw the hospital set alight, and then as dusk was falling, galloped off. And that compares precisely with our Brave Warrior.
If you are still in doubt, are you able to describe in similarly precise terms in which way you believe the Brave Warrior "is trying to give a clear indication that he fully took part in the action at Rorke's Drift" and where he describes events at RD from 6 till the next morning?

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littlehand

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By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published Empty
PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptySat Oct 13, 2012 2:54 pm

Thanks for posting "Hall's account.

Where I think he is trying to get us to believe he was there through the entire action is where he says

"; our losses amounted next morning to 13 killed and a couple wounded – on the enemy’s side 475, which were buried."

I think? it was Lugg, who said he was with Hall, when Hall called out that well known phrase "'' Here they come - as black as hell and as thick as grass"

And Hall wasn't there when the Hospital was fired. And it's Odd that Henderson doesn't get a mentioned in the News Paper account.. Yet he mentioned him in the Hall account you posted...
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Julian Whybra




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By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published Empty
PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptySat Oct 13, 2012 5:47 pm

The words "our losses" and "next morning" in themselves do not indicate Hall's presence later or personal observation and in fact, if he had been there later, he would have got the number of killed right and known that there were more than "a couple" wounded.
It was indeed Lugg who mentioned Hall but he doesn't say Hall shouted the remark. He says he described them that way (but he doesn't say when this he described them).
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littlehand

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By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published Empty
PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published EmptySat Oct 13, 2012 7:52 pm

From John Young's account.RDVC.

"Trooper Henry Lugg, a patient in the hospital, heard Bob Hall's famous warning as he too rode by - "Here they come black as hell and as thick as grass!
"
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