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Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
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» Rorkes drift Hotel
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» Pete Smith Cottage.
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» Lt C. Williams KIA Hlobane
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» Diamond Fields Horse in Zululand
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» Buffalo Border Guard Anonymous Letter
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» Surgn. J. McGann. A. M. Dept
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» Lieutenant-Colonel William Henry Dowling Reeves Welman, 99th
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» Commander C. Lindsay.
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» Reopening National Archives
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» S.SMITH Buffalo Border Guard
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» NNC Officer List
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» One of the lesser-known stories. It took place around the same time as Isandlwana.
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» N Batt 5th Bde RA
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» Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana
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» Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana
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» Malicious malware on this site
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» Zulu Victory - Views?
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» Isandlwana Survivor photo's
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» Anyone got information on this.
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» Captn. H. G. Bowen, 88th Foot
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» The South Africa Medal to HMS Forester - an anomaly?
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» Lieut. R. F. Dixon NMR
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» Next month's DNW medal auction
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» Zulu war medals on eBay
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» John Basten
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» Lieutenant Walter Robert Higginson NNC
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» Letter home from Eshowe
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» Melvill's Revolver Cylinder
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» Assistant Commissary W. Winspear Commissariat Department, present at Gingindlovu
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» Orders to laager at Isandhlwana
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» morale and the siege at Eshowe
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» CUNNINGHAM
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» ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
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» Crimes back in England
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 By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published

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Dave

Dave

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Why does the author of the account not state,that he was employed as a civilian meat contractor.
Why did I think is was "Hitch" who shouted,"Here they come, Black as Hell and as thick as glass"
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Julian Whybra



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Little hand
I regret to inform you that John Young was not alive at the time. John has extrapolated the words "heard" and '"as he too rode by'' from the same account from which I quoted, i.e. Lugg's own, where he uses the word "described". Please don't use secondary works as primary sources. You get into deep water.
Dave
Why do you not think it might have been Gallagher?
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littlehand

littlehand

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Quote :
Please don't use secondary works as primary sources. You get into deep water.
How can one used primary sources, when it concerns an anonymous writer... scratch
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Julian Whybra



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The anonymous writer is in itself a primary source. Lugg is a primary source.
The two passages you have quoted so far, viz. Knight and Young, are both secondary works.
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littlehand

littlehand

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Then why is the artical regarding the NNC Sgt Major, not a primary source.
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Chard1879

Chard1879

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That's two well known Zulu War authors / Historians that have got it wrong… scratch
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: New Research I've just finished and had published    By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published - Page 2 EmptySun Oct 14, 2012 11:19 pm

Hi Pete ( Admin )
Seeing as this is on two threads can you put it onto 1 ? . Salute
Chard1879.
I'm not sure the two well known historians have got it wrong .
Cheers 90th.
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littlehand

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90th. Where's the other thread....
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90th

90th

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Littlehand it's in the General Discussion thread !.....
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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Well i'm sticking to my guns, the letter was written by Adendroff.
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Julian Whybra



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CTSG
Have you actually read the relevant essay in the book?
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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I don't need to. I have read the new paper article by the anonymous writer. I’m sure your essay is very good, but I don't need to spend money to make up my mind. Hall would have mentioned his escape in his official account. And the fact that none of those that have purchased your account seemed to becoming forward to agree with your findings. However I’m sure certain members will now!!!! Personally I can't see Ian Knight or John Young publishing an account that they hadn't researched.
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Julian Whybra



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CTSG
Well, it's so wonderful to find you have an open mind and can think for yourself. By 'none of those' I presume you mean littlehand. And to be fair to him, he's not openly disagreeing, but he is questioning very sensibly.
To write " Well i'm sticking to my guns, the letter was written by Adendroff [sic]" is based, I presume, on your encyclopaedic reading and knowledge of the sources. However, I see that you're so well-read that you don't know that Hall never left an official account. Still, a little detail like that that need make no difference to your mindset.
Please note that at no time did I write that Ian Knight or John Young hadn't researched their accounts. They are your words, not mine. However, since you haven't read the sources they used, you wouldn't know what they'd based their writings on.
I seem to have chosen the Zulu dedication to the book rather aptly.
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6pdr

6pdr

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"'So, Hall, in his own words, stayed, fired the shots at the charging Zulus, then fled 500 yards off, remained hidden and watched, saw the hospital set alight, and then as dusk was falling, galloped off.' And that compares precisely with our Brave Warrior."


Too bad we can't consult George MacDonald Fraser. That quote might have inspired the creation of Flashman, or FLASHMAN AND THE TIGER anyway, right down to the sobriquet. :lol:
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Julian Whybra



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6pdr
Except Hall did it with Henderson in tow.
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SergioD

SergioD

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as any fan of Flashy knows he would have ridden off from Isandlwana in afunk - have hidden at RD while amusing himself with a Zulu maid - have come back to RD when it was over clutching the lost colours of the 24th -- what a guy!!
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rusteze

rusteze

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Julian

Enjoyed your essays very much. I note that the "Brave Fugitive" begins his letter by saying "I promised to give you a better description of that frightful massacre....." , which implies he has been in touch (with the newspaper?) previously, on this or some other subject. I take it there is no sign of earlier correspondence ?

Steve
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Julian Whybra



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The letter was written to a friend or relative and forwarded to the paper "presumably for publication". The "I promised to give you..." line may relate to a previous letter (no sign of it) or a snatched conversation. We don't know.
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I might mention that I'm perfectly happy to receive constructive criticisms of the book from forum members. The Durnford Papers raise a lot of questions. In The Brave Fugitive I'm 100% certain that the author cannot be Adendorff and 100% certain that he is Hall. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence giving it a detailed reading will establish that beyond doubt. I would though be grateful to learn of any potential holes in the argument re the order of arrival of the fugitives / messengers at RD. Re the third essay, Peter Ewart has already added an interesting point on the Rorke's Drift VC forum. If anyone has anything further on it I'd be pleased to hear from him.
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SergioD wrote:
as any fan of Flashy knows he would have ridden off from Isandlwana in afunk - have hidden at RD while amusing himself with a Zulu maid - have come back to RD when it was over clutching the lost colours of the 24th -- what a guy!!

To set the record staight once and for all:

(The woman in question below is the ever formidable Elspeth of course.)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Dear lass," says I, trying not to wince with my leg cracking under the strain, "whatever does my honour have to do with it? And for Heaven's sake, what did Godon-Cumming do--to make you hate him so, and serve him such a ghastly turn?"

At last it came, in a whisper, her head bowed.

"He...he called you a coward."

I dam' near let her fall on the floor. "What was that?"

"A coward!" Her head came up, and suddenly she was fairly blazing with rage. "He said it to my face! He did! Oh, I burn with shame to think of it, the vile falsehood! The evil, wicked story-teller! He said you had run away from the Seekhs or the Zulus or someone at that place in Africa, Isal-something-or-other--"

"Isan'lwana? God love us, who didn't?"

(p.285 Flashman and the Tiger)
=====================================================================================================================================
But as for RD, Flashy's account is...

"Why, at the Drift there wasn't even room to hide and it'll make a ghastly chapter of its own in my African odyssey, if I can set it down before drink and senility carry me off.

Enough for the moment to say that Moran and I were driven absolutely into that beastly carnage. You see, with out wagon blown to pieces he and I lit out on two of the draught screws, leaving the wounded in a cave, Moran intent on fetching help for them, Flashy merely following in his wake--and as dark fell we blundered slap into an impi, for the hills were full of the brutes by now. Then it was head down and heels in, nip and tuck for our lives through the Zulu infested night with the fiends howling at our heels, and sudden Moran was yelling and making for a burning building dead ahead, with with all hell breaking loose around it, Zulus by the hundred and shots blazing, and there was nothing for it but to follow as he went careering through the scrub and bushes, putting his beast to a stone wall, and then a barricade where black bodies and red coats were hacking and slashing in the fire-glare, bayonet against assegai, and my screw took the wall but baulked at the barricade, which I cleared in a frantic dive, launching myself from a pile of Zulu corpses, landing head first on the smoking verandah of what had been the post hospital, going clear through the charred floor, and being hauled half-conscious from the smoldering wreckage by a huge cove with a red beard who left off pistolling to ask me where the dooce I'd come from. I inquired, at the top of my voice, where the hell I was, and between shots he told me.
That, briefly, is how I cam to join the garrison at Rorke's Drift..." (8) (p.311-2)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More is spelled out in footnote 8:

"Flashman's account makes it clear that he and Moran must have reached the Drift about eight or nine o'clock, while the hospital was still burning, and entered the perimeter after jumping the stone wall and the mealie bag barricade which had been built to defend the hospital at the western end of the post. The 'huge cove' with the red beard was presumably Chaplain George Smith, but Flashman is probably mistaken in describing him as 'pistolling,' since the Chaplain was foremost in the vital work of carrying the ammunition."

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SergioD

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[quote="Julian Whybra"]I Anyone with a modicum of intelligence giving it a detailed reading will establish that beyond doubt.

Was that really necessary !! the one thing I have found on this site is that the members are respectful and intelligent. they might not be published "experts" , but they are interesting , well read and love a good debate.

they are also extremely patient and helpful in guiding people who have just become interested in the Anglo zulu war to sources, books, pictures etc.

personally I enjoy the site for its lively discussion and opposing views as well as some good banter. i really do think your above comment is inappropriate and borders on pomposity. and in my mind doesnt belong on here. I have disagreed with Littehand , CTSG et al many times but have never doubted the depth of their knowledge, passion in the subject or their intelligence - just their viewpoint.

BTW I have also ordered your essays - I now hope I agree with you on the Hall point - or I will be destroyed with self doubt over my lack of intelligence!!

vent over!! I apologise to the rest of the forum but I couldnt keep quiet.


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6 pdr - I stand corrected - it ios a while since I read the Flashman books - How typically Flashy to be at Isandlwana, RD and Custers Last stand!!
Thanks for inspiring me to reread the series !!
Sergio D
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SergioD wrote:
6 pdr - I stand corrected - it ios a while since I read the Flashman books - How typically Flashy to be at Isandlwana, RD and Custers Last stand!!
Thanks for inspiring me to reread the series !!
Sergio D

My pleasure! It takes a big man to admit when he has made a mistake. BTW, do you have any notes on Hall's role at The Little Big Horn?
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My pleasure! It takes a big man to admit when he has made a mistake. BTW, do you have any notes on Hall's role at The Little Big Horn?[/quote]


:lol: Indeed I do , unfortunately I fear they may only be a secondary source and therefore of no value or worth whatsover You need to study mo
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SergioD wrote:
Indeed I do , unfortunately I fear they may only be a secondary source and therefore of no value or worth whatsover...

Understood. Thank god we have THE FLASHMAN PAPERS to keep us on the straight and narrow... Wink
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Sergio
I apologize to you profusely. You are obviously possessed of more than a modicum. I hope you enjoy the read. I too find the debate useful and interesting provided it's conducted sensibly.
"Those wars are unjust which are undertaken without provocation. For only a war waged for revenge or defence can be just."
Marcus Tullius Cicero

P.S. Secondary sources ARE of value but only if they indicate the primary sources as evidence of their statements and if those same primary sources, once checked, corroborate those statements.



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In Chards report he says their officer deserted. I take it Bob Hall left with this chap.

From Chards Report: 

About 4.20 p.m. the sound of firing was heard behind the Oscarberg. The officer of Durnford's returned, reporting the enemy close upon us, and that his men would not obey his orders but were going off to Helpmakaar, and I saw them, about 100 in number, going off in that direction. I have seen these same men behave so well since that I have spoken with several of their conduct - and they all said, as their excuse, that Durnford was killed, and that it was no use. About the same time Captain Stephenson's detachment of Natal Native Contingent left us - probably most fortunately for us. I am sorry to say that their officer, who had been doing good service in getting his men to work, also deserted us.

Wrong person section deleted

If it wasn't Adendroff' account, is it not feasible to say, the account could have came from Lient. Henderson,Surly his movements were simular to that of both " Adendroff &
And where do you suppose Henderson & Hall met up. At RD or prior.


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LH

Higginson was never at RD, you asked this a few months back.
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It's quite possible that "Hall" did witness the Hospital burning, it is believed that Henderson joined a relief force on its way to the R.D sometime during the night in which case "Hall" may very well have been with him. Just a thought that could possibly move this topic forward..

DB. Good to see you posting again. Salute
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Quote :
It's quite possible that "Hall" did witness the Hospital burning, it is believed that Henderson joined a relief force on its way to the R.D sometime during the night in which case "Hall" may very well have been with him. Just a thought that could possibly move this topic forward..

Quite possible.. SD. But doesn't alter my question..

Quote :
"If it wasn't Adendroff' account, is it not feasible to say, the account could have came from Lient. Henderson
"





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littlehand
(1) In the paragraph you highlighted Chard is referring to Capt. Stephenson.
When the mixed group of Durnford's Horse left, Henderson and Hall took up a firing position outside the perimeter - shut out, as it were. They then withdrew to a second position 500 yards and remained hidden.
(2) Henderson's movements at Isandhlwana were totally different to Hall's - Henderson began the day at Rorke's Drift and accompanied Durnford up the road to Isandhlwana and thence to a completely different part of the battlefield
(beyond, out across the plain!). These movements don't correspond at all with the writer's. The Brave Fugitive cannot be Henderson.

SaulDavid
Hall did not join Spalding's group. In his other account he says he went on to Helpmekaar to see to the security of some cattle for which he was responsible.



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Mine arrived today , just need some time to have a read !.
Cheers 90th.
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Quote :
"In his other account he says he went on to Helpmekaar to see to the security of some cattle for which he was responsible."
Why would he make two accounts, which account did he give in the first instance.
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Dave
Lots of survivors wrote more than one account - often an official one, one to a parent or brother, to a friend or brother officer, and perhaps to a newspaper.
Hall wrote the Brave Fugitive account as a letter to someone (we don't know who) who forwarded it to the Natal Witness in which it was published on 18th February 1879.
Hall also wrote a letter dated 25th June 1906 to the Editor of the Natal Witness. (It is here that he says where he went when he and Henderson parted.)
There is a third undated letter (but datable by its content to 1929).
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Julian Whybra wrote:
Dave
Lots of survivors wrote more than one account...

For example, Smith-Dorrien's letter home is arguably more valuable than what appears in his autobiography. Curling's letters are another example. IMO, what's surprising is that there aren't more official accounts available. The army's official inquiry after Isandlwana seems to have been narrowly construed in order to intentionally limit input.
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6pdr
The Inquiry heard a lot more witnesses and took down a lot more statements than have survived or were recorded in the Blue Books and the NA. The Inquiry's report was to go to Chelmsford to supplement his existing knowledge and he rejected everything he already knew or duplicated.
That said, accounts do turn up. Sometimes they even vanish again. D. R. Morris told me that he used an account by Hamer in the KCAL; it's not there now but it must be somewhere (Morris's attic I suspect).
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I have gone through the various accounts from the defenders of Rorke's Drift. And can only find one that gives an estimated time as to when the hospital was set on fire.

"Bourne.
About 7 o'clock they succeeded, after many attempts, in setting fire to the Hospital"

Hall's account 1906
" I must tell you now that when the Zulus first attacked Rorke’s Drift, there were not more than twenty five of them and they kept coming on in batches of twenty five to fifty and so they continued rolling up, until they set the hospital on fire. At this time Mr. Henderson and I had exhausted all our ammunition and had to move further away to a thorn tree about 500 yards below the house. It was getting dusk, and as we saw no chance of returning to the laager, as the whole place would soon be on fire, we decided to leave, and started to ride to Helpmakaar. On the way we fell in with a convoy taking ammunition to Rorke’s Drift and quietly trekking along in complete ignorance of what had happened there. Mr. Henderson stayed with them the night, and I went off after my cattle at Helpmakaar. As an eye witness I know what happened at Isandhlwana and Rorke’s Drift, up to the time the hospital was fired..."


So are we to believe that Henderson & Hall remained hidden from roughly 16:30 to 19:00hrs 2.5 hours. 
And just how much ammunition did they have, Hall states he was firing as fast as he could before leaving leaving Isandlwana and we known Henderson couldn't find any ammunition.

Do we know what time Rainforth arrived at the point near Rorke's Drift before giving up. An account as named members of the rocket battery meeting up with Spalding, but can't find nothing to state that Henderson and Hall did. Doe's anyone have anything to say they did. 
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little hand

For starters, try Chard's official (contemporary) account where he says the hospital was set alight shortly after six p.m. (and he should know). The Bourne account you used dates from December 1936 when he was 82. In it, his other timings are imprecise too. Bourne's memory was good re events but not exact times. If you look at Bourne's earlier account he says the hospital was set alight about 6 p.m.

I should think Hall and Henderson remained hidden, or rather, beyond the Zulus' reach, from about 5 till gone 6, long enough to see the hospital burn.

Hall himself says that they had exhausted their ammunition when they retreated from the corner of the wall.

Just after the defenders retreated to the biscuit box line (say, 6.30-ish) they thought they saw dust on the road (and therefore the approach of a relief force) at which time Spalding had had his adventure on the Helpmekaar road and turned back. Dusk fell at 7 pm. I anticipate Hall and Henderson bumped into the 24th on the road at some time between 6.15 and 6.45. Henderson stayed with them to spend the night and Hall rode on.

Finally, Henderson DID find ammunition - read H.D. Davies's account.
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You certainly have covered all areas and have genuine replys to all the various questions. I'm just looking down other avenues, which will involve more questions, however must admit it is starting to look like you could be correct.
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Julian Whybra wrote:
6pdr
That said, accounts do turn up. Sometimes they even vanish again. D. R. Morris told me that he used an account by Hamer in the KCAL; it's not there now but it must be somewhere (Morris's attic I suspect).

:lol: Well, you're just going to have to find a way up there then Julian. What does he drink?
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Halls named account was published in 1906. So the anonymous artical was presented first.
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Did Henderson leave an account.
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It appears Spalding had some problems with Zulu's while on route to RD. so with that and seeing the sky lit up with fire. So he turn round and went back home.
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Littlehand
That's what I try to do. Try all the avenues and close them down one by one. What I'm left with is what's in the book. Thanks for the exploration. I would be happy to be shown where I'm at fault, if I am. What's important is truth not ego.

impi
Henderson did not leave a specific account.
Instead what we have is two letters home to his father, J. Henderson, dated:
(A) 25th and (B) 28th January 1879.
(C) His annotations to a copy of Brickhill, J.A., ‘The Isandhlwana Massacre’, Natal Magazine, (September 1879), datable to 1882, kept in the Royal Engineers’ Museum, Chatham, Kent, England, accession no. 4901-44/11, as are two (D & E) annotated and initialled cloth maps (marked Nos. 1 & 3) sent by him to Edward Durnford in 1882, accession no. 4901-44/12.
(Ei) A duplicate of Map No. 3 with minor alterations (also marked No. 3 but which for clarity we can call 3A) found by Ron Lock, Blood on the Painted Mountain, (London, 1995), in the Killie Campbell Africana Library, Durban, accession no. KCM 89/9/81/24. In the same place is (F) an annotated Map No. 2, accession no. KCM 89/9/81/23. The file containing both is referred to as 'Elephant File 81' because it is a very large cardboard folder secured by pink tapes.
(G) His obituary notice from an unidentified Natal newspaper 1927 in Hathorn and Young.
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littlehand

littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: By JULIAN WHYBRA Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published   By JULIAN WHYBRA  Studies in the Zulu War 1879: New research I've just finished and had published - Page 2 EmptyThu Oct 18, 2012 7:09 pm

Well I have now finished reading Julian's " Studies In The Zulu War 1879" A Brave Fugitive.

After reading the 24 pages of undoubtably time consuming research six and half pages being foot notes of sources checked.

Julian's publication covers near every possible movement made by Hall, placing him in areas of Isandlwana where certain well known events took place, to the point where he left backed up with primary sources.

This is another one of those publication, that can only be proven to be incorrect, if some can show by using primary sources that it is incorrect, I don't think that will happen for many years to come. Although my opinion as no bearing on what others think. I'm convinced that " Hall" is the author of " A Brave Fugitive" 


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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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LH. Sent you a PM.
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Chard1879

Chard1879

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LH. Unlike you to give up so easily. Shocked
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littlehand

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Chard. It's not a case of giving up. I have spent hours, been late for work twice!!. And I can find nothing that could provide primary source evidence to prove Julian's conclusion to be in-correct. My knowledge on the Zulu War is basic. Even a well seasoned Zulu War Historian will find it hard to prove otherwise. 

CTSG. Hopefully this will answer the question in your PM.
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Julian Whybra



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Little hand
Thank you.

What I was trying to do with the Brave Fugitive stemmed from being sick to death of reading the repeated refrains of:
(1) Adendorff left the field early like some Boys’ Own Comic baddie
(2) Adendorff was the only man to escape by the road (really stupid this; no lone man could get through the left horn by himself)
(3) Adendorff may not have fought at RD
The emergence of the Brave Fugitive newspaper report had been misused to add to Adendorff’s ‘baddiness’ by implying cowardly behaviour and to lend credence to his escaping Isandhlwana by the road and departing RD early.
So, in my article I wanted to show four things in this order of priority:
(1) that Adendorff was not the Brave Fugitive. He stayed at Isandhlwana, did his duty, left at the same time as other fugitives like Higginson, and braved the Fugitives’ Trail along with the rest. He then fought at RD.
(2) to determine who the Brave Fugitive actually was.
(3) to discover who arrived when and from where at RD and who brought messages: Fletcher via FD, Adendorff and Sibthorpe (or Granger) via FD & the left bank, Evans and Whelan from FD, Henderson plus ten Europeans with a group of 100 NNH via the road (a group of six score horsemen COULD punch a hole through the right horn).
(4) that Adendorff in no way deserves the slur cast upon his character which was begun by Morris in TWOTS. In fact, he deserves praise because he ELECTED to remain at RD, the only man apart from Smith to have done so. He needn’t have done this and should get the credit. Instead we get popular historical nonsense based on ‘gut feeling’ which helps to sell books but adds nothing to our knowledge or understanding of the battle.

Little hand has not ‘given up’. He’s covered the same ground as I did and realized the same obvious conclusion. He’s learnt. And, ultimately, that’s what we should all be trying to do.

P.S. little hand - did you get my pm?
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6pdr

6pdr

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Julien,

In terms of adding "to our knowledge or understanding of the battle," what of larger import does you new research prove or bear out? I am not asking this in a skeptical or hostile fashion. I guess it helps make the case that at least one man fought in both battles. I'm also wondering if it shows, for example, that some men left Islandwana and headed for Rorke's Drift to warn them, rather than merely fleeing to save their lives?

But I'm just surmising and probably not accurately. So how did conducting/concluding this research alter your overall understanding? Question

- 6pdr
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