WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Zulu Dawn Lt. Melvill: “We come here by the orders of the Great Queen Victoria, Queen of all Africa.”
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Gunner 1448 William Bibby, Royal Artillery, 6th Bde. M Battery
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 30, 2021 6:13 pm by SteveL

» Robert Gordon Wolrige-Gordon 2nd Lieutenant 94th
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 29, 2021 1:55 pm by 90th

» Deputy Inspector-General George Bell Murray
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 29, 2021 12:50 am by ADMIN

» Surgeon Major Henry Lamb
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 29, 2021 12:28 am by ADMIN

» Lieutenant Richard Hawes MacCarthy, 2nd/4th Regiment
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 28, 2021 10:44 pm by ADMIN

» 24th Regiment Pioneers
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 27, 2021 6:20 pm by ADMIN

» Henry Berry
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptySun Jul 25, 2021 7:35 pm by gardner1879

» Devon Connection.
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptySun Jul 25, 2021 5:34 pm by 1879graves

» Sir Lionel McMahon 58th Regiment.
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptySun Jul 25, 2021 4:55 pm by 1879graves

» B Company 1/24th Regimental Records
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptySun Jul 25, 2021 4:08 pm by gardner1879

» Return from Zululand Private LETHBRIDGE and Corporal BERRY
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptySun Jul 25, 2021 5:00 am by Celticphred

» Alexander Gordon Cumming Skene.
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptySat Jul 24, 2021 7:53 pm by 1879graves

» Could it have been an even bigger disaster?
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 22, 2021 8:46 am by Frank Allewell

» New Book with Zulu War Connection
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 19, 2021 6:06 am by 90th

» ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptySun Jul 18, 2021 2:30 pm by aussie inkosi

» The Zulu dead at Isandlwana
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 16, 2021 5:05 pm by SRB1965

» J Brazier 1/24 foot 1877 - 78 bar
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 16, 2021 6:47 am by 90th

» New Members Welcome.
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 15, 2021 8:53 am by Drummer Boy 14

» Zululand population 1879?
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 12, 2021 7:44 pm by Altamont

» Melvill and Coghill Victoria Cross query
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 12, 2021 6:33 pm by SRB1965

» Yet another Hill of the Sphinx thread
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 12, 2021 6:59 am by 90th

» Zulu War Chess Set
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 09, 2021 10:49 am by Darto

» Joshua Harrod - Which Battles
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 08, 2021 5:30 pm by 1879graves

» Zulu War to Boer war. Those who served in both.
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 07, 2021 6:35 pm by Rory Reynolds

» Lance Sergeant Armstrong Victoria Mounted Rifles
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 07, 2021 6:24 pm by Rory Reynolds

» You tube Video "Fredrick Hitch"
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jul 06, 2021 11:53 am by aussie inkosi

» Prince Imperial visited
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jul 05, 2021 1:47 am by 90th

» Isandlwana Casualty - John William Jones Davies
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptySun Jul 04, 2021 10:50 am by ADMIN

» Colonel W. P. Collingwood
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Jun 23, 2021 10:50 pm by John Young

» (Lieut: R. F. Westmacott. 77th. Foot.)
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jun 22, 2021 10:35 pm by ADMIN

» HARRY WILLIAM DAVIS,
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 21, 2021 6:49 am by aussie inkosi

» 90th foot sgt T. Collins 214
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 20, 2021 2:23 am by 90th

» Civilian Surgeon W.J. Cobbin
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 18, 2021 4:00 am by Frank Allewell

» Midshipman Coker photo
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 17, 2021 8:40 pm by ADMIN

» Battle of Rorke's Drift memorabilia
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyTue Jun 15, 2021 12:35 pm by John Young

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Walking the battlefield of Kambula
Top posters
90th
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_leftFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 BarFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_leftFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 BarFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_right 
littlehand
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_leftFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 BarFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_right 
ADMIN
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_leftFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 BarFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_right 
1879graves
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_leftFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 BarFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_right 
rusteze
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_leftFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 BarFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_leftFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 BarFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_right 
John
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_leftFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 BarFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_leftFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 BarFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_leftFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 BarFor Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Most active topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable.1
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.5
Durnford was he capable. 4
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
Woolfryes henry Mounted spalding Natal harford Police drift Franklin Isandlwana zulu james smith George taylor Forbes martini Prince melvill Russell 24th carbineers payne john horse Durnford
 

 For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers

Go down 
+8
littlehand
Julian Whybra
forlornhope76
Frank Allewell
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
impi
Chard1879
6pdr
12 posters
Go to page : Previous  1, 2
AuthorMessage
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7786
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 9:14 am

90th
I fully agree. The battle was planned for the 23rd, BUT, there is no doubt that there was massive activity stretching from the Quabe Valley to the Manzimyama that around 5 kilometres, and stretching as far back as from the ridge across the plateau to the Ngwebini valley, another 5 k.
That's a huge amount of territory where activity was taking place.
Theres very little doubt that the camp for the night of the 21st/22nd was to be the Ngwebini valley. But that changed, hence all that activity. If it wasn't an impending battle that changed it then what was it?
Julian makes a valid but inconsequential point that there is sufficient testimony that the battle was not to be on the day of the dead moon and none that changes that concept. My answer to that is the recorded commentary from the Zulu side is all from lower level foot soldiers, the type that are hardly likely to be around a bunch of chiefs in a strategy meeting so of course they were surprised. The only person above that level was Mehlokazulu, but even he was just above the menial level. His rise to fame is purely because of his infamy in starting the whole war.
So my view point is, yes the battle was planned for the 23rd, but the strategy was changed for a lunch time/early afternoon attack. That was triggered an hour or so early by Raw.

Cheers

PS looks as though I may just have a travelling companion after all.  agree 
Back to top Go down
Ulundi

Ulundi

Posts : 558
Join date : 2012-05-05

For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 9:17 am

I think we all know the 23rd was the day planned for the attack, so why so much movement by the Zulus on the 22nd if they wasn't going to attack. I doubt they were practicing for the event!
Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 10314
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 65
Location : Melbourne, Australia

For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: For LC , the zulu royal army attack the camp at night    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 9:23 am

Hi Springy .
There isnt much doubt in my mind that Raw certainly brought on the attack by firing into the Impi , sure as hell they weren't going to sit there and do nothing ! .  Shocked . When are you and the travelling companion heading off ? , what is the companion thinking !!  scratch   scratch . LOL.
 Merry Christmas  90th  Merry Christmas 
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7786
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 9:38 am

Its a so far so good situation really. We are turning it into a road trip, 4 day journey up central SA then into the Drankensburg mountains, through into Natal then down the coastal route through Transkei and the Eastern Cape, pick up a game farm and then home. Shees and all I wanted was a week in Natal ! Now its going to be a three week run. SA is like Aussie, bloody big.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7786
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 9:39 am

Ulundi
No fight from me mate.  agree  you've got it spot on.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 10:03 am

Bravo impi ,tu as tout compris ,Yes the Zulu rose up and attack Raw and company when fired upon! Yes at this point the Zulu commanders lost control. And Yes it's not an easy task to stop a Zulu Impi once on the move. And yes it was the Zulu regiments that cocked it up for the commanders because they had intended on attacking on the 23rd.

This was the same thing and Kambula Ulundi with attacks that were not provided by the C-in-C Zulus ...

The umCijo and iNgobamakhosi are ungovernable, because they Were impetuous.
Back to top Go down
Ulundi

Ulundi

Posts : 558
Join date : 2012-05-05

For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 10:47 am

Pascal wrote:
This was the same thing and Kambula Ulundi with attacks that were not provided by the C-in-C Zulus ...

That's true! The Zulu Warriors seemed to have been in control of their commanders.
RD is a good example, a zulu commander tried to stop it but couldn't,
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra



Posts : 2452
Join date : 2011-09-12

For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 11:59 am

"How do you explain the reports coming in from 05:30 onwards regarding mass Zulu movements around the camp of Isandlwana."


A couple of people have made the above statement in various forms.  It slips easily from the keyboard and needs to be examined piecemeal.  I can only say that, after reviewing the accounts which led to this sort of remark, and going out on a limb, I do not believe it holds water.  Where this argument has been published I've found that the quotations offered as evidence do not match the detail in the original accounts.
First, the notion of 'reports coming in' tends to make it official sounding, as if they went directly to Pulleine, and the use of the plural makes it sound as if there were several of them (which therefore 'must' have been ignored).  The timing of '5.30' is HIGHLY debatable.  'Mass movements' makes it sound as if what WAS seen was a whole-impi manoeuvre.  'Around the camp of Isandhlwana' gives the impression of large-scale manoeuvrings in all geographical directions from the mountain.
I question this (J'accuse!).  To be precise, I question the form of the wording used.  It is a very important, crucial even, part of the story of Isandhlwana and cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.  I would suggest merely that forum members return to the sources where and if they can (i.e. do not rely on authors' reproduction of accounts) especially regarding Colonial survivors.

Springbok makes a valid point about there being no surviving testimony from the leaders.  It then becomes speculation that a decision was made to switch the attack day to the 22nd.  There is no evidence to say this did happen or didn't.  But surely, key to this, is the nature of the evolution of the attack itself.  Trying to square accounts like the Zulu Deserter above with a deliberate decision for an attack on the 22nd becomes difficult.  It would involve an additional speculation that Ntshingwayo had decided on an attack for the afternoon of the 22nd which was precipitated by Raw's discovery and the forward movement of the umCijo.  The Zulu deserter's makes more sense when allied to the traditional story (which is supported by Zulu, albeit footsoldiers', accounts).

This is a very interesting area of the battle - one I'm particularly interested in - and indeed it is something I'm still working on for an eventual essay (or something longer) on  the subject.  The arguments for and against as posted above by members are all valid and considered but the historian in me reminds me that historical validity requires clear-cut evidence based on primary sources before black-and-white bald statements like that at the top of this posting or like the one regarding an attack scheduled for the 23rd can be taken as read.


leaders
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7786
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 12:22 pm

hi Julian
I wait with baited breath for your arguments against Barkers statement. Fully agree that its open to interpretation on a time scale and position the incidents occurred, however they did occur and the timing is debatably accurate.

Look forward to your argument.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 1:31 pm

No Ulundi, the attacks on Rorcke's Drift was not uncontrolled, Dabulamanzi would not take the risk of staying there overnight to mount the attack ...

By cons, Durnford was also uncontrollable for the poor Lord Chelmsford, as the umCijo and iNgobamakhosi are ungovernable for the Zulu generals, because Durnford also was impetuous.

It was not the first time that Durnford was imprudent ...

Under the pretext that it was most senior, he wanted to do his thing, this kind of behavior was not asked him in his orders ...

It was only to pass by isandhwana to reach the poor Lord Chelmsford ...

We saw the result ...
Back to top Go down
 
For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers
Back to top 
Page 2 of 2Go to page : Previous  1, 2

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: