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 For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8399
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 9:14 am

90th
I fully agree. The battle was planned for the 23rd, BUT, there is no doubt that there was massive activity stretching from the Quabe Valley to the Manzimyama that around 5 kilometres, and stretching as far back as from the ridge across the plateau to the Ngwebini valley, another 5 k.
That's a huge amount of territory where activity was taking place.
Theres very little doubt that the camp for the night of the 21st/22nd was to be the Ngwebini valley. But that changed, hence all that activity. If it wasn't an impending battle that changed it then what was it?
Julian makes a valid but inconsequential point that there is sufficient testimony that the battle was not to be on the day of the dead moon and none that changes that concept. My answer to that is the recorded commentary from the Zulu side is all from lower level foot soldiers, the type that are hardly likely to be around a bunch of chiefs in a strategy meeting so of course they were surprised. The only person above that level was Mehlokazulu, but even he was just above the menial level. His rise to fame is purely because of his infamy in starting the whole war.
So my view point is, yes the battle was planned for the 23rd, but the strategy was changed for a lunch time/early afternoon attack. That was triggered an hour or so early by Raw.

Cheers

PS looks as though I may just have a travelling companion after all.  agree 
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Ulundi

Ulundi


Posts : 558
Join date : 2012-05-05

For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 9:17 am

I think we all know the 23rd was the day planned for the attack, so why so much movement by the Zulus on the 22nd if they wasn't going to attack. I doubt they were practicing for the event!
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90th

90th


Posts : 10680
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: For LC , the zulu royal army attack the camp at night    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 9:23 am

Hi Springy .
There isnt much doubt in my mind that Raw certainly brought on the attack by firing into the Impi , sure as hell they weren't going to sit there and do nothing ! .  Shocked . When are you and the travelling companion heading off ? , what is the companion thinking !!  scratch   scratch . LOL.
 Merry Christmas  90th  Merry Christmas 
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8399
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 9:38 am

Its a so far so good situation really. We are turning it into a road trip, 4 day journey up central SA then into the Drankensburg mountains, through into Natal then down the coastal route through Transkei and the Eastern Cape, pick up a game farm and then home. Shees and all I wanted was a week in Natal ! Now its going to be a three week run. SA is like Aussie, bloody big.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8399
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 9:39 am

Ulundi
No fight from me mate.  agree  you've got it spot on.
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For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 10:03 am

Bravo impi ,tu as tout compris ,Yes the Zulu rose up and attack Raw and company when fired upon! Yes at this point the Zulu commanders lost control. And Yes it's not an easy task to stop a Zulu Impi once on the move. And yes it was the Zulu regiments that cocked it up for the commanders because they had intended on attacking on the 23rd.

This was the same thing and Kambula Ulundi with attacks that were not provided by the C-in-C Zulus ...

The umCijo and iNgobamakhosi are ungovernable, because they Were impetuous.
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Ulundi

Ulundi


Posts : 558
Join date : 2012-05-05

For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 10:47 am

Pascal wrote:
This was the same thing and Kambula Ulundi with attacks that were not provided by the C-in-C Zulus ...

That's true! The Zulu Warriors seemed to have been in control of their commanders.
RD is a good example, a zulu commander tried to stop it but couldn't,
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3293
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 11:59 am

"How do you explain the reports coming in from 05:30 onwards regarding mass Zulu movements around the camp of Isandlwana."


A couple of people have made the above statement in various forms.  It slips easily from the keyboard and needs to be examined piecemeal.  I can only say that, after reviewing the accounts which led to this sort of remark, and going out on a limb, I do not believe it holds water.  Where this argument has been published I've found that the quotations offered as evidence do not match the detail in the original accounts.
First, the notion of 'reports coming in' tends to make it official sounding, as if they went directly to Pulleine, and the use of the plural makes it sound as if there were several of them (which therefore 'must' have been ignored).  The timing of '5.30' is HIGHLY debatable.  'Mass movements' makes it sound as if what WAS seen was a whole-impi manoeuvre.  'Around the camp of Isandhlwana' gives the impression of large-scale manoeuvrings in all geographical directions from the mountain.
I question this (J'accuse!).  To be precise, I question the form of the wording used.  It is a very important, crucial even, part of the story of Isandhlwana and cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.  I would suggest merely that forum members return to the sources where and if they can (i.e. do not rely on authors' reproduction of accounts) especially regarding Colonial survivors.

Springbok makes a valid point about there being no surviving testimony from the leaders.  It then becomes speculation that a decision was made to switch the attack day to the 22nd.  There is no evidence to say this did happen or didn't.  But surely, key to this, is the nature of the evolution of the attack itself.  Trying to square accounts like the Zulu Deserter above with a deliberate decision for an attack on the 22nd becomes difficult.  It would involve an additional speculation that Ntshingwayo had decided on an attack for the afternoon of the 22nd which was precipitated by Raw's discovery and the forward movement of the umCijo.  The Zulu deserter's makes more sense when allied to the traditional story (which is supported by Zulu, albeit footsoldiers', accounts).

This is a very interesting area of the battle - one I'm particularly interested in - and indeed it is something I'm still working on for an eventual essay (or something longer) on  the subject.  The arguments for and against as posted above by members are all valid and considered but the historian in me reminds me that historical validity requires clear-cut evidence based on primary sources before black-and-white bald statements like that at the top of this posting or like the one regarding an attack scheduled for the 23rd can be taken as read.


leaders
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8399
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Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 12:22 pm

hi Julian
I wait with baited breath for your arguments against Barkers statement. Fully agree that its open to interpretation on a time scale and position the incidents occurred, however they did occur and the timing is debatably accurate.

Look forward to your argument.

Cheers
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For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers    For Lord Chelmsford , the Zulu royal army attack the camp at night & charge into it with all numbers  - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 18, 2013 1:31 pm

No Ulundi, the attacks on Rorcke's Drift was not uncontrolled, Dabulamanzi would not take the risk of staying there overnight to mount the attack ...

By cons, Durnford was also uncontrollable for the poor Lord Chelmsford, as the umCijo and iNgobamakhosi are ungovernable for the Zulu generals, because Durnford also was impetuous.

It was not the first time that Durnford was imprudent ...

Under the pretext that it was most senior, he wanted to do his thing, this kind of behavior was not asked him in his orders ...

It was only to pass by isandhwana to reach the poor Lord Chelmsford ...

We saw the result ...
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