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The Zulu Wars - The Road To Isandhlwana - Episode 1 - Full Documentary
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 The missing five hours.

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Guest
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The missing five hours.  - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 3:05 pm

impi," At the headquarters tent Shepstone met
Captain Alan Gardner who had just brought an
order from Chelmsford for Pulleine to send on camp
equipment and supplies to the Mangeni, and
for the moment to remain at Isandhlwana and
Entrench it." source.Drooglever Thesis page
246. cheers xhosa
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impi

impi

Posts : 2308
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 4:37 pm

And it was at that point Gardner! Advised Pulliene to disobay the Generals orders, as he didn't know what was happening at the camp.

DB is referring to Ammunition supplies to the firing lines.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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The missing five hours.  - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 5:16 pm

Impi
The biggest problem we have with isandlwana has bee compared with trying to do a jigsaw with most of the pieces missing. Close to a thousand of those pieces are the troops that died, and unfortunatly it was those men that would have said yea or ney as to weather or not the received ammunition.
The Only confirmations we have boil down to Malindi and Smith Dorriens statements/letters that state they were on the firing line and either receiving or had received ammo.
Wilson in his statement states that the bandsmen where being posted for various duties, including ammunition carriers. There is no catagorical evidence apart from these.
Essex states he was sending ammo, your quite right, he doesnt say it was received.

The points that have been made that sure its highly probable that ammo was running low but there is an obvious point that the companies did make it back in substantial numbers. To do that they would have had to have had a means other than the bayonet to force a way through the surrounding zulu. At least one of the groups and highly possible two did pass the 2/24th wagons and could have been resupplied. H was probably the worst of in that they crossed the entire camp area to get to the point they eventually die.

The numbers of troops that made it back to the saddle area and the 1/24th were pretty large. And again the number that fought down the trail is pretty large.

So balance of probabilities are that at some point through the fighting re supply was done, when and where and by whom depends on your outlook.

Cheers

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Guest
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The missing five hours.  - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 5:27 pm

The time was about 12 noon, at about this time firing was
heard from the direction of the spur to the north of the camp.
two companies of british troops there were firing at Zulu
moving left across their front about 8oo yards away.

Pulleine was nonplussed when he received the news from shep-
stone that the Zulu army was on the plateau. shepstone tried
to bring himself under control:

" I am not an alarmist, sir, but the Zulus are in such black
masses over there, such long black lines, that you will have
to give us all the assistance you can.they are fast driving our
men this way".

Gardiner advised pulleine that under the circumstances he
should ignore chelmsfords's order.pulleine immediately sent
off a note to chelmsford ( which only reached him at about 2.00
pm ). staff officer (hallam-parr) heavy firing to the left front of
camp. cannot move camp at present.

It was not sufficiently informative so gardner penned his own
message and sent it by a second mounted man..
Heavy fighting near left of camp.shepstone has come in for
reinforcements and reports that Zulus are falling back.the
whole force at camp turned out about one mile to left front.

It is not known where gardner had got the idea that the Zulus
were falling back.both messages were treated by chelmsford
with little concern. the force at the camp,he thought, was well
able to hold its own against the small numbers of Zulus be-
believed to be around the camp.source. drooglever.

Me, the ammunition issue was just around the corner, the
mounted men were just beginning to come in for more.

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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 5:51 pm

Unabridged Extract from Diary of Richard Wyatt Vause

My orders were to see the wagons safely into camp and then join him about 12. I got back with the wagons and hearing firing about 2 miles to the front of the camp at once gave the order to trot, and started off to find Col. Durnford. I came across Capt. Shepstone, and as he asked me to stay with him I dismounted the men and extended them in skirmishing order. We were soon under hot fire, but continued to advance very slowly as the Zulus were under good cover, and we had to expose ourselves every time we advanced. On arriving at the top of the hill we perceived the enemy in overwhelming force coming up from behind and fearing our ammunition would be expended before we could reach the camp Capt. Shepstone gave the order to retire back to our horses. Fortunately the Zulus were shooting very badly, and as yet very few casualties had occurred on our side. As soon as the Zulus perceived that we were in retreat they came on with a shout and were rapidly gaining on us when we regained our horses.
As soon as the men were mounted we retired slowly to the camp, dismounting every few yards and firing a volley, but without holding the enemy in check as they did not seem to mind our fire at all.
After regaining the camp it was found to our dismay that the ammunition boxes had not been opened and as the Zulus were close on our heels we had no time to look for screwdrivers. Fortunately one of my kaffirs came across a box with a few in which I distributed amongst the men.
By this time the soldiers had expended their ammunition and the Zulus had cut though them and were in amongst the tents and we were obliged to retire again. On reaching the road we found it occupied by Zulus and our only way of escape lay over a very rough strip of country. One or two of my older kaffirs advised me to try it, as it was impossible to get out by the road.
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impi

impi

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The missing five hours.  - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 6:05 pm

There is always going to be arguments from bothsides, regarding the ammuntion question at Isandlwana. We have accounts from both sides. Essex and Smith were both in the camp where the ammuntion waggons were. Essex states mules were sent loaded with ammuntion to the firing lines, although he claims to have ridden to the front to tell the men ammuntion was on its way, never confirmed if it arrived, but we have accounts stating mules were seen running away, kicking off thier loads? 

Smith leaves two accounts, one where he said he was sending men out with ammuntion, and in a letter tI his father claims he rode to the front with ammuntion.? 

We know the men were falling back,to the camp looking for more ammuntion. If they had enough why would they fall back. If they had, had plenty of ammuntion, the amount of fire would have no doubt turned the Zulu as they did in the being, when they had ample ammuntion.

Younghusband's men supposedly charged down into the Zulu masses why? 
They had no ammunition left? 

Durford fell back, because they were running low on ammuntion?
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
Join date : 2010-10-22
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 6:41 pm


Heavy fighting near left of camp.shepstone has come in for
reinforcements and reports that Zulus are falling back.the
whole force at camp turne

  [/quote]Hello Xhosa,
Not zulus, basutos.This error is in man books
Cheers
Frederic
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impi

impi

Posts : 2308
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The missing five hours.  - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 7:28 pm

I read some where, they didn't like being known as Basutos. They preferred "(Zikhali’s Horse) You need to study mo 
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Guest
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The missing five hours.  - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 7:43 pm

Hiya frederic, shepstone was referring
to the Zulus, my reference was to the
mounted men which included amongst
other elements..basutu's. cheers mate
xhosa
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DrummerBoy 16



Posts : 110
Join date : 2013-06-16

The missing five hours.  - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 9:19 pm

Most the companies got back to the camp area, so they must have had enough ammo to enable them to fight their way back. Simple.

These describethe fall back

Mehlokazulu

" I then heard a Bugle call and saw the soliders massing together, they fired at a fearful rate. "

Uguku

"The soliders retired on the camp fighting all the way."

Umhoti

" Portion of the British force passed over the Nek and took up a position under cover of the Dongas on the right side of the road and from that place kept up such a fire
 that no Zulu dared show his head over the Nek."
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24th

24th

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 9:40 pm

Yes, yes we are aware of that! But if they had enough ammo, they woundn't of needed to fall back. No doubt they realised they were running low, and used what they had left to fall back?
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 9:44 pm

[quote="xhosa2000"]Hiya frederic, shepstone was referring
to the Zulus, my reference was to the
mounted men which included amongst
other elements..basutu's. cheers mate

Bonsoir Xhosa,

Sorry, I repeat, this error is in many books (from memory: Coupland: Clammer, Saul David, Morris....)
There is a topic somewhere on this subject (and on Rorke's Drift forum).
I have already asked the question...
See for exemple Ian Knight: "Zulu Rising" p.352 (edition 2010 / hard cover)
""Heavy firing near left of the camp. Shepstone had come in for reinforcements and reports the Basutos falling back the whole force turned out and firing about one mile to left flank - Alan Gardner Captain."
Source Ian Knight: Gardner report WO 33/34 National Archives, London
You can also search in Jackson's book " Isandhlwana".(i have not my copy at hand).
Good luck mate in your research!

Cheers
Frederic


                                      x
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ymob

ymob

Posts : 2263
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Location : France

The missing five hours.  - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 10:10 pm

fff]Sorry, I repeat, this error is in many books (from memory: Coupland: Clammer, Saul David, Morris....)
...and in "the road to Isandhlwana: col. a. Durnford in Natal and Zululand" by RWF Droogleever (greenhill books ed. 1992 p.211) / no source)
Cheers
Frederic


                                      x[/quote][/quote]
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Dave

Dave

Posts : 1605
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 10:13 pm

Can anyone confirm the information below. Is ths a personal observation! 

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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John Young

John Young

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Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

The missing five hours.  - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 11:01 pm

Dave,

I tried to put a link in to Dylan's blog last week but as I'm a 'newbie' I could not post it, so here it is:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I also tried to e-mail Dylan as he has copied an error which a Zulu War author has created.  George Thompson Macleroy's nickname was 'Geordie' and not Kelly. This all stems from a corruption of Andrew Muirhead's report.

For 'Davis' read H. D. Davies, I fell into the same mistake by following a Natal Mercury where the 'e' was missing, which was strange as Davies was a Mercury employee.

Which part of Dylan's piece are you actually querying?

John Y.
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Dave

Dave

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 11:39 pm

Another account that shows ammuntion running out.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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Dave

Dave

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 11:42 pm

Thanks for the Link John. The items I'm posting are being emailed to me.

This is what I'm getting end of second email. 

Source; Maritzburg College
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Dave

Dave

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 11:47 pm

Did Macleroy see the Zulu Horseman?
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24th

24th

Posts : 1851
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptySun Sep 15, 2013 11:57 pm

J.Y thanks for link,bags of infoe there! Salute
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7550
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The missing five hours.  - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyMon Sep 16, 2013 8:51 am

The problems I have with that statement are that Lt HD Davies was with Durnford on the way from Rorkes Drift at the time of this incident.
In his statement TNA (PRO), WO 33/34. Inclosure 2 in No 69 there is no mention of this at all. He has contact in the camp when chatting with Durnford and  "Some of the Carbineers came to us and during the conversation they remarked that a lot of zulus on the ridge ".
His next mention of Carbineers is : : We were overtaken by two Carbineers who had been sent with a message from Lt Scott."

I dont believe there was ever a point where he was on Piquet or a point that he was away from Durnford untill he left Durnford to get ammo in the Donga.

5000 horsemen? that equates to around 25% of the zulu army. Or is that a typo error? No 

Edit
Just had a further look at that statement,
Dawn was at 5.22 that morning, at that time Smith Dorrien was still on his way to Rorkes Drift with the message calling Durnford to iSandlwana. How on earth would Macleroy even know that Durnford was on his way?

There are some interesting weeds growing in the PMB area.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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Location : Cape Town South Africa

The missing five hours.  - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyMon Sep 16, 2013 9:15 am

Ive just looked at the web site.
What a load of rubbish, the entire description relating to isandlwana/Durnford is inaccurate. I have e mailed the gentleman concerned, in ddition to the comedy he has created he has the cheek to lift one of my photos and use it without permission of acreditation.

Suspect 

Angry as hell Don\'t agree 
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Guest
Guest



The missing five hours.  - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyMon Sep 16, 2013 2:22 pm

All,Having just read the latest in the other place.
well, well, well.Ive suggested the manner of
and style of the 'nice col mike' i knew full well
what he would bring to the debate..so now its
TMFH2..fascinating.
cheers xhosa2000
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impi

impi

Posts : 2308
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Age : 40

The missing five hours.  - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 12:36 am

Don't agree. He's making it TMFH 2 no ne else. 
He is doing what everyone else has done. Chuck loads of big words in, twisted the hell out of them, and has still not come up with a plausible counter argument! We could all disagree with TMFH but that can only be based on a personal preference! Of which most people un interested in. It's simple show something based on facts, accounts anything, but don't discredit it for the sake of it! As far as I can see, Snook and McCabe are just playing silly games!

They are assuming, because they don't agree with PQ & RL findings. No one else will. " WRONG" !!!!
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Guest
Guest



The missing five hours.  - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 1:40 am

impi,thank you for that.could you now
please articulate your OWN views.the
debate has reached a very interesting
stage.what is your detailed analysis of
whats been going on over the last few
weeks.
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durnfordthescapegoat

durnfordthescapegoat

Posts : 94
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 5:01 am

I agree with the previous posters assessments of the anti-TMFH arguments and the protagonists.
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impi

impi

Posts : 2308
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Age : 40

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 8:13 am

Two members of another forum, slating a document that uses primary source evidence, eyewitness accounts. 

Todate those members of that forum have added nothing new? As for TMFH 2 slant. Why ?

TMFH does it all perfectly. Salute


Anyway work. Later.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Posts : 2583
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 9:15 am

Mike Snook, is one of the most leading authorities on the Anglo Zulu War. He basics his debate on what he knows, and seen, and as we know he has been to that Battlefield as often as Springbok, surprise they haven't bumped into each other.
Mike Snook its looking at the Battle as an experienced army officer would.

Never heard of the McCabe chap! But seems to like ridiculing others!!! Bit of a Joker 
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 9:23 am

Why do you assume we havent?
Salute 
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 9:25 am

Because Mike tells me, if he's see's you he hides in a Donga until you have gone!!!
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 9:27 am

Suspect 
Thought that was a secret
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 9:33 am

It was!!! He tells me, he saw you with a little snuff box hanging around you neck, near Durnford's donga, doing all sorts of odd things!!!
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 9:34 am

Im probably going to regret this, however. What sort of odd things?
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 9:36 am

Its appears you was playing with a Cockatoo!!!! Rolling Eyes 
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24th

24th

Posts : 1851
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 9:39 am

We need that lol smilie. That did make me laugh.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 9:43 am

Thanks you 24th, one of my better one's! Just waiting for the come back.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 9:51 am

Not bad at all Salute 
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 9:53 am

If I could spell plagiarism I would accuse you of it. However 'A Bird in the Hand.................
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 9:57 am

CTSG.
Mike Snook is defending the regiment’s honour. He is unable to accept it was a Zulu Victory at Isandlwana. No matter how much he moves the companies around the Battlefield, alters routes in and out, who was where at what time, what he says is how it was. He should have been the co-writer of Zulu Hart!! Fiction.
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Guest
Guest



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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 10:24 pm

On the 21st of january 1879 the regiments had been allotted an order of
encampment which presumably would be the order of battle.on the right
were the Nodwengu,Nokenke,and Mcijo; The centre was formed by the
Ngobamakosi,uVe,and Mbonambi, and the left by the Undi corps and the
uDhloko Regiment, The precipitate action of the Mcijo changed all this.

the commanders in chief, Mavumengwana and Tshingwayo, were only able
to hold back the Undi corps and the uDhloko.this resulted in the right and
centre regiments being extended to provide for the absence of a left horn.
the left horn (such as it was) was formed by a portion of the Ngobamakosi
approximately 1500 men. striking off to the south, to the left of iTusi to-
ward Qwabe, the ridge of reddish soil that overlooked the Nxibongo river
about five miles from Isandhlwana. The uVe, together with the rest of the
Ngobamakosi and the Mbonambi formed the left centre of the chest and
swept to the west of iTusi hill and into the neck between the Nyoni and
the conical hill ( Amatutshane ).most of the Ngobamakosi were event-
ually to make their way round the eastern side of Amatutshane and join
their branch that had come down the plain.

The heart of the chest was made up of the Mcijo,Mhlanga,Nkandempemvu,
and Ngakamatye regiments. on right the centre were the Nokenke and
uDududu regiments.the right horn was the Nodwengu,Mkhulutshane regi-
ment's. Drooglever

That's quite a battle order methink's. cheers xhosa

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Ulundi

Ulundi

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 11:07 pm

Nothing a few Gatling Guns couldn't of handled, if they had been present!
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Guest
Guest



The missing five hours.  - Page 12 Empty
PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyTue Sep 17, 2013 11:18 pm

Doubt it,what an omni shambles
Vitiia Lampada, the gatlin would
have jammed, the Colonel's would
still be dead..
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durnfordthescapegoat

durnfordthescapegoat

Posts : 94
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyWed Sep 18, 2013 4:55 pm

impi wrote:
CTSG.
Mike Snook is defending the regiment’s honour.  He is unable to accept it was a Zulu Victory at Isandlwana.  No matter how much he moves the companies around the Battlefield, alters routes in and out, who was where at what time, what he says is how it was.  He should have been the co-writer of Zulu Hart!! Fiction.
When I expressed a similar opinion I was dealt with quite harshly by the authorities here.
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Guest
Guest



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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyWed Sep 18, 2013 7:32 pm

dtsg. why dont you just say what
you want.if you get stick give a
bit back.knock a bit off, leave a
bit on..its all opinions,give and take
i would suggest is key.
cheers xhosa2000
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littlehand

littlehand

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Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyWed Sep 18, 2013 8:06 pm

DTSG. Which post was that then, which discussion!
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durnfordthescapegoat

durnfordthescapegoat

Posts : 94
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyWed Sep 18, 2013 10:54 pm

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Posts : 2583
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyThu Sep 19, 2013 12:01 am

I think that was the discussion, that brought Col Snooks name into disrepute! It was deleted.
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durnfordthescapegoat

durnfordthescapegoat

Posts : 94
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyThu Sep 19, 2013 5:11 am

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
I think that was the discussion, that brought Col Snooks name into disrepute! It was deleted.
By commenting on some-one else's review of his book.
Of well CTSG seems like things may have changed a bit since I was away.
In note you are still beating the same drum.
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ADMIN

ADMIN

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Location : KENT

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyThu Sep 19, 2013 7:47 am

durnfordthescapegoat wrote:
A long time ago in a galaxy far far away.
Best left there then!
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https://www.1879zuluwar.com
durnfordthescapegoat

durnfordthescapegoat

Posts : 94
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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyThu Sep 19, 2013 10:49 am

I am a reformed man now. I have seen the light and no longer walk on the dark
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old historian2

old historian2

Posts : 1096
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Location : East London

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PostSubject: Re: The missing five hours.    The missing five hours.  - Page 12 EmptyThu Sep 19, 2013 11:39 am

With nearly 48,000 posts. I think we are all reformed! agree
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