WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu: (Michael Caine) If 1200 men couldn't hold a defensive position this morning, what chance have we with 100?
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Fred Godwin- Austen
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyThu May 13, 2021 8:00 am by Frank Allewell

»  P. C. Van Niekerk B/3rd Cape Yeo.
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyWed May 12, 2021 1:04 pm by gardner1879

» 2nd Lieut. S. Strong 90th MID for Khambula
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyWed May 12, 2021 1:21 am by 90th

» W.Brandes 90th Light Infantry
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyMon May 10, 2021 9:41 am by rai

» Gunner T.Stoker 7th Brigade
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySun May 09, 2021 6:35 pm by gardner1879

» Officers at Ulundi
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySun May 09, 2021 6:54 am by Frank Allewell

» Possible Zulu war medal holder and family.
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySat May 08, 2021 12:14 am by WeekendWarrior

» Orderly Room Sergeant role
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySun May 02, 2021 7:17 pm by jancodk

» Melvill's Revolver Cylinder
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySat May 01, 2021 6:58 pm by Julian Whybra

» Colour - Sergeant George William Mabin
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySat May 01, 2021 6:15 pm by Visitor

» The Passing of Her Majesty Queen Mantfombi Dlamini Zulu.
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyFri Apr 30, 2021 9:37 am by ADMIN

» Ian Knight Questions and answers
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyThu Apr 29, 2021 11:51 pm by aussie inkosi

» Sir Henry Bartle Frere letter to Sir Henry Ponsonby
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyThu Apr 29, 2021 6:39 pm by gardner1879

» Boy 1st Class Thomas Harris
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySun Apr 25, 2021 6:19 pm by RickB

» Gabangaye - was he ubidied?
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyFri Apr 23, 2021 2:43 pm by Julian Whybra

» List of identified bodies at Isandlwana
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyThu Apr 22, 2021 8:26 pm by Frank Allewell

» 1595 Pte. E. Jones 2/24th
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyThu Apr 22, 2021 10:40 am by RickB

» New British Muzleloaders videos on Isandlwana
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyWed Apr 21, 2021 3:33 pm by Frank Allewell

» Library destroyed
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyTue Apr 20, 2021 5:42 am by barry

» Zulu War Medal
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySat Apr 17, 2021 4:38 pm by Bill8183

» sergeant G J Brown
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySat Apr 17, 2021 12:10 pm by 90th

» Captain HUGH O'DONNELL.
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyFri Apr 16, 2021 7:32 pm by WeekendWarrior

» Great Grandfather James (Jimmy) Robinson DCM
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyFri Apr 16, 2021 3:54 pm by Kenny

» In Affectionate Remembrance of P.C. Stephens
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyFri Apr 16, 2021 1:36 pm by gardner1879

» Trpr. Simpson's medal
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyThu Apr 08, 2021 5:13 pm by Julian Whybra

» Someone maybe able to help. 2235 Pte A F Edmonds J7th DCOLrg
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyThu Apr 08, 2021 3:30 am by 90th

» Medal ribbon on Patrol Jacket
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySun Apr 04, 2021 9:47 pm by John Young

» One of the lesser-known stories. It took place around the same time as Isandlwana.
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySun Apr 04, 2021 9:54 am by Julian Whybra

» Isandlwana Survivor photo's
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySat Apr 03, 2021 7:06 pm by ADMIN

» <Pte. W. Dunne 2nd Btn 3rd (East Kent) Regiment ('The Buffs') & Sgt. O. Hydenburg (Aydenburg) Natal Native Contingent,)
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyFri Apr 02, 2021 1:33 pm by gardner1879

» William Papworth. Alan Gardner's servant.
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyThu Apr 01, 2021 10:28 pm by gardner1879

» Smith-Dorrien 1881
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyThu Apr 01, 2021 5:45 pm by John Young

» Archibald Forbes query
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyTue Mar 30, 2021 11:26 am by Julian Whybra

» Norris-Newman
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyMon Mar 29, 2021 10:17 am by ADMIN

» Forum questions or problems!
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySun Mar 28, 2021 10:25 pm by ADMIN

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Rorke's Drift to the British Museum: Story of Henry Hook
Top posters
90th
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
littlehand
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
ADMIN
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
1879graves
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
rusteze
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
John
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
gardner1879
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
John Young
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
90th
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
rai
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
1879graves
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
Visitor
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
jancodk
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
ADMIN
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_leftExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 BarExactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Bar_right 
Most active topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable.1
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.5
Durnford was he capable. 4
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
Isandlwana smith taylor Police Mounted james zulu melvill spalding Prince Durnford drift 24th Woolfryes martini harford payne Natal Forbes Russell john carbineers George horse henry Franklin
 

 Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of?

Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
AuthorMessage
xhosa2000

xhosa2000

Posts : 1189
Join date : 2015-11-24

Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of?   Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySun Jan 24, 2016 4:02 pm

Dave agreed! i have thought that for years..i always thought it was in Chelmsford mind that
he might indeed STUMBLE across the main Zulu army, which makes his decision to
leave the ammo behind even more baffling.. so what was it with him? was it just breath-
taking arrogance coupled with complacency and incompetence witch led to the massacre at
Isandhlwana..what a deadly combination that proved to be!. agree
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2872
Join date : 2010-06-02

Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of?   Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySun Jan 24, 2016 4:59 pm

Ian Knight's assessment in Zulu Rising repays some study. The following is my understanding of what IK is saying (so any misrepresentations are mine and not IK's).

We know that Chelmsford's plan was to engage the Matshanas before moving on to the main impi (that is what he describes in his orders to Durnford). It is a further stage in his mopping up of the local chiefs, as he had done with Sihayo a few days before. He even has some thoughts that Matshana may surrender rather than fight. He sends two of his own ADCs (Gossett and Buller) out with Dartnell on his reconnaissance and they report back to Chelmsford after Dartnell encounters the Zulus. There was nothing in their reports to alarm Chelmsford and he sends out some further mounted infantry and pack horses with extra provisions. He gives an order that Dartnell is to attack the Zulus when he thinks fit.

The second message arrives from Dartnell during the night reporting increased numbers of Zulus and saying it would not be prudent to attack them without some white troops. Dartnell's substantial NNC contingent had been spooked during the night and, understandably, he could not rely on them with just his 70 or so Natal Mounted Police and Volunteers.  

So why did Chelmsford take such a large proportion of his force out with him to join with Dartnell?

I like IK's reasoning a little better than the labels. It had not been unusual for Chelmsford to take substantial numbers of troops out on sweeps of the bush on the Eastern Cape Frontier  to  flush out the enemy and bring them to battle. Wood was, at that very time, doing something very similar 50kms to the north. And Chelmsford now has an inkling that a much larger Zulu force is in the vicinity and he fears that if he hunkers down his main force at Isandhlwana the main Impi will by-pass him without coming to battle and head direct for Natal. Each of those sets of reasoning are plausible and have some merit. To my mind they have nothing to do with arrogance or complacency. He was of course proved wrong for reasons we have already alluded to - but he was not the incompetent that we keep labelling him as.

Steve
Back to top Go down
xhosa2000

xhosa2000

Posts : 1189
Join date : 2015-11-24

Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of?   Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySun Jan 24, 2016 7:51 pm

He was of course proved wrong for reasons we have already alluded to - but he was not the incompetent that we keep labelling him as.
Hmmm!. might be handy to make a list of what he said he would do..and then another of
what he actually did!.......or failed to do...
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2872
Join date : 2010-06-02

Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of?   Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySun Jan 24, 2016 8:27 pm

Hmmm!. might be handy to make a list of what he said he would do..and then another of
what he actually did!.......or failed to do...


I look forward to reading it but suggest including "and why" to each category?

Steve
Back to top Go down
xhosa2000

xhosa2000

Posts : 1189
Join date : 2015-11-24

Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of?   Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySun Jan 24, 2016 9:28 pm

Hmmm, saw what you did there Steve.. Very Happy i might do that over the
next few days or so.
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2872
Join date : 2010-06-02

Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of?   Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptySun Jan 24, 2016 10:10 pm

Good man agree

Steve
Back to top Go down
impi

impi

Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 41

Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of?   Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of? - Page 5 EmptyMon Jan 25, 2016 4:19 pm

rusteze wrote:
Ian Knight's assessment in Zulu Rising repays some study. The following is my understanding of what IK is saying (so any misrepresentations are mine and not IK's).

We know that Chelmsford's plan was to engage the Matshanas before moving on to the main impi (that is what he describes in his orders to Durnford). It is a further stage in his mopping up of the local chiefs, as he had done with Sihayo a few days before. He even has some thoughts that Matshana may surrender rather than fight. He sends two of his own ADCs (Gossett and Buller) out with Dartnell on his reconnaissance and they report back to Chelmsford after Dartnell encounters the Zulus. There was nothing in their reports to alarm Chelmsford and he sends out some further mounted infantry and pack horses with extra provisions. He gives an order that Dartnell is to attack the Zulus when he thinks fit.

The second message arrives from Dartnell during the night reporting increased numbers of Zulus and saying it would not be prudent to attack them without some white troops. Dartnell's substantial NNC contingent had been spooked during the night and, understandably, he could not rely on them with just his 70 or so Natal Mounted Police and Volunteers.  

So why did Chelmsford take such a large proportion of his force out with him to join with Dartnell?

I like IK's reasoning a little better than the labels. It had not been unusual for Chelmsford to take substantial numbers of troops out on sweeps of the bush on the Eastern Cape Frontier  to  flush out the enemy and bring them to battle. Wood was, at that very time, doing something very similar 50kms to the north. And Chelmsford now has an inkling that a much larger Zulu force is in the vicinity and he fears that if he hunkers down his main force at Isandhlwana the main Impi will by-pass him without coming to battle and head direct for Natal. Each of those sets of reasoning are plausible and have some merit. To my mind they have nothing to do with arrogance or complacency. He was of course proved wrong for reasons we have already alluded to - but he was not the incompetent that we keep labelling him as.

Steve

All being speculation.
Back to top Go down
 
Exactly what was Chelmsford guilty of?
Back to top 
Page 5 of 5Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: