Latest topics | » Francis Shirley Russell 14th HussarsMon Apr 29, 2024 1:20 pm by IntCorpsMedals » Looking for the medal to 1423 Pte. W. Gregg/GreigSat Apr 27, 2024 2:46 am by sam steele » 1409 Pte David Lloyd, Defender of Rorke's DriftFri Apr 26, 2024 9:48 pm by Julian Whybra » The curious tale of Cetshwayo's "gunpowder depot" and an aggressive snakeThu Apr 25, 2024 10:36 am by Hobbes » Anson A. Mayer/MaherTue Apr 23, 2024 8:10 pm by cmeghen » Late Father's Militaria CollectionSun Apr 21, 2024 3:16 pm by Julian Whybra » A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:28 pm by Eddie » Lieut. B. Pohl, No. 7 Coy 1/3 Natal Native ContingentSat Apr 20, 2024 10:26 am by SRB1965 » Alfred Fairlie Henderson photographs.Fri Apr 19, 2024 8:04 am by John Young » No. 985. PTE. EDWARD READ. 2-24 Regt. (South Wales Borders).Sun Apr 14, 2024 9:12 pm by Julian Whybra » Private Willis 2/24th Regiment his letter from South AfricaSat Apr 13, 2024 3:49 pm by 1879graves » Sickness among Crealock's menFri Apr 12, 2024 5:52 pm by Hobbes » Wheeler John Cantwell DCM, RD survivor of the Royal Horse ArtilleryTue Apr 09, 2024 6:20 pm by Kenny » Brevet Major W.R.B. ChamberlinSun Apr 07, 2024 6:44 pm by Jager1 » Private 1941 Samuel MacClue / McClune 1/24th RegimentSun Apr 07, 2024 4:11 pm by Dash » Sergeant W E Warren RA - VeteranSun Apr 07, 2024 11:50 am by DavidS » "With 6 good riflemen"Sat Apr 06, 2024 6:10 pm by Hobbes » Punch's view of Chelmsford's tactics!Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:17 pm by SRB1965 » Colonialism: A Moral LegacyMon Apr 01, 2024 12:16 pm by Julian Whybra » John Robert DunnSat Mar 30, 2024 1:09 pm by 90th » An early memorial to the Prince Imperial?Sat Mar 30, 2024 11:35 am by John Young » The Poem "A Child Hero" referring to Rupert WeatherleyFri Mar 29, 2024 2:07 pm by Bongo » Writing adviceTue Mar 26, 2024 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra » Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at largeWed Mar 20, 2024 1:53 pm by Dash » Your favourite line from Zulu or Zulu DawnTue Mar 19, 2024 5:52 pm by Julian Whybra » 100,000 posts!Tue Mar 19, 2024 3:20 pm by Julian Whybra » Zulu Dawn/Zulu - New Immortals Film The Way Forward ?Sat Mar 16, 2024 3:34 pm by jgregory » Badge on 2/60th and 3/60th foreign service helmets Sat Mar 16, 2024 12:05 pm by John Young » Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Fri Mar 15, 2024 10:08 am by Julian Whybra » British rations and moraleTue Mar 12, 2024 12:05 am by Julian Whybra » Blue Plaque to James Egan, alias Private HaganMon Mar 11, 2024 10:16 pm by ADMIN» A few questions regarding Rorke's Drift and IsandlwanaWed Mar 06, 2024 10:16 pm by Julian Whybra » William J Hoare 24th Regiment??Sun Mar 03, 2024 8:08 pm by Dash » Swinburn Carbine issue in AZWThu Feb 29, 2024 1:53 pm by Rob D » Australians who went to Zululand and fought in the 1879 war.Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:39 am by John Young |
May 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
| | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | | | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
New topics | » The curious tale of Cetshwayo's "gunpowder depot" and an aggressive snakeWed Apr 24, 2024 4:26 pm by Hobbes » Lieut. B. Pohl, No. 7 Coy 1/3 Natal Native ContingentSat Apr 20, 2024 1:38 am by WeekendWarrior » Alfred Fairlie Henderson photographs.Fri Apr 19, 2024 8:04 am by John Young » Late Father's Militaria CollectionThu Apr 18, 2024 4:04 pm by A Crockart » Anson A. Mayer/MaherTue Apr 16, 2024 6:28 pm by cmeghen » A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)Sun Apr 14, 2024 9:01 pm by Hobbes » Sickness among Crealock's menThu Apr 11, 2024 9:51 pm by Hobbes » Wheeler John Cantwell DCM, RD survivor of the Royal Horse ArtillerySun Apr 07, 2024 10:36 pm by Hobbes » John Robert DunnSat Mar 30, 2024 12:47 pm by SueSNB |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
| | Durnford's Level of Culpability | |
|
+6gardner1879 SRB1965 aussie inkosi Julian Whybra Frank Allewell BobTiernan 10 posters | |
Author | Message |
---|
Julian Whybra
Posts : 3960 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sat Oct 28, 2023 6:42 pm | |
| Simon I shall have to look up the details for you. It worked out at 2 waggons per company plus the canteen-cooks-supply waggon - Jackson's diagram on p. 15 of HOTS is accurate. |
| | | BobTiernan
Posts : 58 Join date : 2022-09-03
| Subject: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sat Oct 28, 2023 9:38 pm | |
| "Being as was only a temporary camp"
That describes almost all of them, and Chelmsford instructions, so far as I know, did not exempt these from precautions.
Bob |
| | | BobTiernan
Posts : 58 Join date : 2022-09-03
| Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sat Oct 28, 2023 9:46 pm | |
| I have read in some of these messages that the Martini-Henry carbines and rifles used different cartridges. I don't know enough about such details of those weapons to know. In the US when the 1873 Springfield was introduced to the army there was a rifle version and a carbine for the cavalry, but they had the same action and used the same cartridge with the only difference being that the carbine used less powder in the shell (50 grains, or a 45-50 cartridge it was called) so as to reduce the discharge kick for soldiers firing while mounted, and the fully packed cartridge held 70 grains of powder (the 45-70 cartridge is was called), but it was the same cartridge. I have a 73 carbine with an 1874 serial number -- I'll fire just two or three rounds and I get a black and blue bruise on the shoulder.
Bob |
| | | SRB1965
Posts : 1203 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sat Oct 28, 2023 9:55 pm | |
| - BobTiernan wrote:
- "Being as was only a temporary camp"
That describes almost all of them, and Chelmsford instructions, so far as I know, did not exempt these from precautions.
Bob Hi Bob, The quote above was I reference to the location of waggons, in particular the supply waggon.. However Lord C was with the Centre Column and he made no reference or attempt to take precautions....was there a camp with Lord C present that he fortified, since entering Zululand? To opposite - he actively dissuaded commanders from taking precautions, in that Bashe Valley. I'm not sure how we square that circle? Cheers Simon |
| | | SRB1965
Posts : 1203 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sat Oct 28, 2023 9:58 pm | |
| Hi bob
What I believe was said was that the MH carbine and rifle (and Swinburn Henry carbine) used the same ammunition at this time and the low load red patched carbine rounds did not arrive until March.
Cheers
Simon |
| | | SRB1965
Posts : 1203 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sat Oct 28, 2023 10:00 pm | |
| - SRB1965 wrote:
- Re Durnfords Waggons
One thing to consider in the Durnford Ammo situation was that any Martini ammo could have been used by the Martini Henry and Swinburn Henry Carbines.
In fact in the opening stages of the AZW carbine ammunition was not available - it seems that the red patched carbine (lower load) ammo was a 'new' innovation.
According to Neil Aspinshaw (on the old Rorkes Drift forum) -
The reality is that to fire a rifle round in the carbine is unpleasant, but not overtly bad. The variance in recoil means you have to hold onto the carbine a little more as it jumps about a bit.
I doubt though in the opening stages of the AZW that the carbine load was actually available. Most of the ammunition would have been circa 1876-77 manufacturing dates.
Cheers
Sime |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10882 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 67 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Durnfords level of culpability Sun Oct 29, 2023 12:55 am | |
| Hi Frank Just to clarify Mate Ian K has never stood on the bridge and said this was the position where they defended the Donga , Rob Gerrard had them on the ' other side of the current road ' !! , I didn't think so , as I wrote yesterday unfortunately with limited detail , near the Medical centre....I should've clarified was 150 - 200 metres south of the said Medical centre. Did you watch us against the Kiwis ? ....that was a match for the Ages ! , where would one start in summary !? . . 90th. |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sun Oct 29, 2023 5:53 am | |
| Morning Gary Never mentioned Ian at all mate. I would dispute the south of the medical centre. Mainwaring has an exact measurement, puts it in front, North, of the centre. I am aware of the positioning south and the tell tale marks but there is no guarantee that was the original track. As I pointed out the track has moved back and forwards many times. The fact that spent ammo was found in that location ( I have some) again only shows the line stretched that far. Have to go with the measurements taken in September 1879. Couldnt believe the tension on the field between Aussie and the Kiwi teams, brilliant display by both. The top 4 are going to be forces to be reckoned with. after winning the Rugby world cup last night, thoughts are daring to turn to the double! |
| | | BobTiernan
Posts : 58 Join date : 2022-09-03
| Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sun Oct 29, 2023 6:41 am | |
| SRB,
EVen though the Central column had only just entered Zululand itself when it cross the Buffalo, colonials felt that even camps on the west side should be fortified to some extent. I'll stick with just the camps in Zululand itself.
Morris makes the case that although Chelmsford wanted laagering if entrenching was not done he knew there was no time to do this at every camp and that proper picketing would or should provide enough warning of any approaching Zulus to allow time for deploying for defense. He's right, more or less.
He also mentions that regimental wagons (and presumably those of colonial units) were behind the tent areas, just as Jackson shows on his camp layout sketch. I will never say that all of the other wagons or even most of them should have been brought into an arc in front of the camp, but a number of them could have been. And like I said, it may be that because this was felt to be inconvenient, Chelmsford lost over 1,500 men and had to start over again four months later.
Bob |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 3960 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sun Oct 29, 2023 9:22 am | |
| SRB There was no camp constructed/fortified by Glyn's column on the Zulu side of the river in the first invasion. |
| | | SRB1965
Posts : 1203 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sun Oct 29, 2023 10:22 am | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- SRB
There was no camp constructed/fortified by Glyn's column on the Zulu side of the river in the first invasion. Thanks Julian, It was more of a rhetorical question to reinforce my PoV that despite Lord Cs instructions - nothing was done to implement defences in his own column. Maybe I should wrote it as a statement. Thanks Simon |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 3960 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Durnford's Level of Culpability Sun Oct 29, 2023 10:24 am | |
| SRB It's OK! Just as well to be clear! |
| | | | Durnford's Level of Culpability | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |